Special Pleading and the Problem of Evil

[Trailblazer]

So you're saying claims and divine texts can't be trusted as truth about a God. And we should trust facts and reason, and be skeptical.

Yes, we should trust facts and reason, and be skeptical of religious claims.

Regarding the flood, we cannot trust divine texts that are ancient, inaccurate and contradictory, but we can trust the more modern divine texts.

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

 

[F1fan]

God did not create pedophiles, they created themselves by choosing to be pedophiles.

Pedophelia isn't a choice any more than being gay or straight is a choice. These are sexual preferences that are part of the human nature. So God did make them. You know God well, explain why God made them.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, we should trust facts and reason, and be skeptical of religious claims.

Regarding the flood, we cannot trust divine texts that are ancient, inaccurate and contradictory, but we can trust the more modern divine texts.

Texts being ancient isn't the issue, it's whether ANY text is factual and consistent with reality that makes it true. This is why we doubt your many claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

Pedophelia isn't a choice any more than being gay or straight is a choice. These are sexual preferences that are part of the human nature.

Acting on our preferences is a choice. God does not cause anyone to act. Humans are fully responsible for their actions, as any court of law knows.

 

[Trailblazer]

texts being ancient isn't the issue,

It should be an issue because these ancient texts were not written by any Prophet or Messenger of God, and the authors cannot even be verified, and they have been edited and translated many times over.
That should be a red flag blowing in the breeze telling you the words on the pages are from man, not God.

 

[F1fan]

Acting on our preferences is a choice. God does not cause anyone to act. Humans are fully responsible for their actions, as any court of law knows.

You are avoiding my question: why did God create pedophiles?

 

[F1fan]

It should be an issue because these ancient texts were not written by any Prophet or Messenger of God, and the authors cannot even be verified, and they have been edited and translated many times over.
That should be a red flag blowing in the breeze telling you the words on the pages are from man, not God.

Claims that aren't based on facts are always red flags, and this includes many of your claims, as you are aware. Notice you edited out that part of my comment you quoted. If claims are not factual we have reason to reject them.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are avoiding my question: why did God create pedophiles?

I don't know because God never told me.
You'll have to ask God if He is within your cell phone range, God is out of my cell phone range.

 

[Trailblazer]

Claims that aren't based on facts are always red flags, and this includes many of your claims, as you are aware.

I don't have claims, I have beliefs and many of them are based upon facts that surround the Bahai Faith.
You won't find many such facts for the ancient religions because facts are what can be known, and not much can be known about the ancient religions.

Notice you edited out that part of my comment you quoted. If claims are not factual we have reason to reject them.

I already addressed that when I said "Yes, we should trust facts and reason, and be skeptical of religious claims."
So I saw no reason to address it again. I was instead honing in on ancient texts.

 

[F1fan]

I don't have claims, I have beliefs and many of them are based upon facts that surround the Bahai Faith.

First, your beliefs are what you privately think are true concepts. When you state your beliefs to others they become claims. Second, the "facts" of the Bahai Faith are quite questionable. You've failed to demonstrate many of the ideas you claim are factual and true so they aren't facts.

You won't find many such facts for the ancient religions because facts are what can be known, and not much can be known about the ancient religions.

If the ancient religions were true 2000 years ago they would be true today. As it is no religions can demonstrate they have truth.

I already addressed that when I said "Yes, we should trust facts and reason, and be skeptical of religious claims."
So I saw no reason to address it again. I was instead honing in on ancient texts.

You avoid hard questions.

 

[F1fan]

I don't know because God never told me.

You talk to God?

You'll have to ask God if He is within your cell phone range, God is out of my cell phone range.

So you shouldn't say anything about pedophiles or anything you don't understand, right? But we know pedophiles exist for some reason, along with deadly mutations. These are not good, yet they are part of God's creation. And you can't explain why. But we can have a bad impression about your God and deem it evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

First, your beliefs are what you privately think are true concepts. When you state your beliefs to others they become claims.

No, not unless I claim they are true. If I say I believe them that is not a claim.
Baha'u'llah made claims, I believe His claims.

Second, the "facts" of the Bahai Faith are quite questionable. You've failed to demonstrate many of the ideas you claim are factual and true so they aren't facts.

It is not my job to verify facts for other people, that is their job if they want to know if they are true.

If the ancient religions were true 2000 years ago they would be true today. As it is no religions can demonstrate they have truth.

I never said the ancient religions are not true, I only ever said that their scriptures are not authentic and their messages are not applicable to the age we live in. Spiritual truths are eternal, so they will always be true, but their social teachings and laws are outdated. Take for example Islam teaching that girls should not be educated. That is reprehensible. Baha'u'llah taught universal education.

 

[Trailblazer]

You talk to God?

Only in prayer, but He never talks back

So you shouldn't say anything about pedophiles or anything you don't understand, right? But we know pedophiles exist for some reason, along with deadly mutations. These are not good, yet they are part of God's creation. And you can't explain why. But we can have a bad impression about your God and deem it evil.

I am sure there are lots of things you do not consider good in the world, but there is a purpose for everything.
Why should I be able to explain why God created everything? How would I know?
Humans don't need to know everything that was created because we are not God, so we are not all-knowing.
Do you think God cares if atheists deem Him evil? Think again.

 

[viole]

The problem is that they never had a chance to live life. This was not because of an incurable disease, this was because someone chose to end their lives. One was unpreventable, the other was preventable.

And? Is that important? What is a few decades on this fallen world when compared to an eternity of bliss? Zero. And also from a probabilistic point of view, the risks of failing in life, and therefore missing an eternity of bliss, are huge, while by skipping that process you can only win.

It is no brainer, really. Any religion that believes kids go to heaven automatically, while grown-ups might not, entails that mass deaths of kids is a good thing. Something to actually strive for. If Christianity was true, for instance, I would vastly have preferred to be aborted.

We find that absurd because nobody really believe that, does he? It is like the typical born again Christian who, when diagnosed with cancer, ask his friends to help him by praying to Jesus so that .... he does not have to meet Jesus. I always wondered what Jesus might think of that

Did I ever say that was the best thing? I only ever said that if children die they will be recompensed by God.

As I said, from a probabilistic point of view, that is really the best it can happen to them. Like getting everything for ever, without risks and having to work for that.

That's very true, it is more difficult for those of us who are left behind.

Ergo, it the best thing for them. As I said.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Please let me know the next time you SEE God killing anyone, of you can locate God on your GPS tracker.

I never said He is killing. What I am saying is that He is doing nothing to prevent that, despite being omnipotent and omnigood apparently. For sure He will never win a prize for civil courage.

Ciao

- viole

 

[rational experiences]

Basic human advice would you subject your life personally to scientific experiments that impose attack upon natural form only?

No would be his egotistic answer. Not his life personally. He being the man origin science theist. Human men.

Two human parents first the subject. Have sex form a baby life. The parent cares nurtures protects the baby child into adulthood.

Keeps life protected by its adult choice.

Then you have impractical imbalanced lives. Consciousness no longer naturally paired with it expressing conscious natural identification. Self life continuance. Natural pair natural sex.

Yet expressing non values of paired human balanced life bodies. Mutual life continuance in examples of I will blow up by man's owned unnatural inventions my holy body and all other humans to have sex in the heavens.

Life having been created by sex.

One example of mind by invention expressing it's self destructive imbalanced psyche. Science hence proven irrational also.

Life continuance is not any God. It is Sex.

Why would any human be discussing God or a God? Life continuance is a human choice.

For scientific practice only. The first and only past and present reasoning.

Chosen evil that multiplied inherited evil imbalances. Anything expressed no longer balanced naturally.

Life is created to live in its self owned highest form as to continue. Sex is lifes owned highest reforming process.

The weak harmed hence die unnaturally. We the healthy see. Notify the result. Teach. Not any experiement. It is SEEN.

Question who invested in evil.

Science of the nuclear had.

As earth had been space vacuum sealed owning no bodily mass leaving only eruption of the natural law a planet body.

Con and coercion is a taught science sophist human title only.

Humans stole earths owned riches by their choice and their portrayed self an accumulator taker in hierarchy positions as a form human of a God or goddess. By group imposition bullying first. Tactics against family unity.

Imbalanced thinker scientists origin to think not for balance only to remove balances.

Liars. Just as humans and only humans knowing in proven fact historic all earth planet changes they caused. As science perusal observation is just a human thinker. A human invented science thesis via human consciousness.

Greed elitism is the known past chosen human deceit who committed the most atrocious crimes to humanity. Claims all in the name of science owning inventive trade versus natural life balanced.

To accumulate by applied forces. As a group is the unnatural group human strategy. Family is the origin balanced group.

About time family dealt with the human inherited family problem theirselves.

Religious holy spiritual idealism in any country claimed it owned that unified human one purpose agreement with all national family DNA extended human family life.

The statement when earth as Jesus information had shifted it's bodily mass in space due to pyramid nuclear science. Agreed with a new time count and scientific status of scientific caused effects.

To time shift mass.

Ice has time shifted as highest form evaporative cools to reform only to a new atmospheric cooling tunnel versus UFO radiation accumulated burning. Atmosphere protecting life yet not protecting life.

It's origins. Only protected life.

Mass shifting is two conditions in nuclear removal. Mass gone to nothing presence. Cold bodies changing positions as effect.

We are humanity. We are family and bio life is not machines. Bio life owns atmospheric life.

 

[Trailblazer]

And? Is that important? What is a few decades on this fallen world when compared to an eternity of bliss? Zero. And also from a probabilistic point of view, the risks of failing in life, and therefore missing an eternity of bliss, are huge, while by skipping that process you can only win.

It is no brainer, really. Any religion that believes kids go to heaven automatically, while grown-ups might not, entails that mass deaths of kids is a good thing. Something to actually strive for. If Christianity was true, for instance, I would vastly have preferred to be aborted.

That is what is called the easy way out. Only lazy people who only care abut getting to heaven would prefer to die rather than live life and earn their way to heaven.

It is also a rationalization for saying abortion is a-okay, for selfish people who want to excuse their bad behavior.

As I said, from a probabilistic point of view, that is really the best it can happen to them. Like getting everything for ever, without risks and having to work for that.

I consider that pathetic, getting something for nothing with no risks... You should be a Christian, that is basically what they believe.... saved and forgiven just by believing Jesus died for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never said He is killing. What I am saying is that He is doing nothing to prevent that, despite being omnipotent and omnigood apparently. For sure He will never win a prize for civil courage.

Ciao

- viole

God is not obligated to save people from dying just because He is omnipotent.
Humans are however charged with the responsibility to try to save their fellow humans and not murder them.

 

[viole]

That is what is called the easy way out. Only lazy people who only care abut getting to heaven would prefer to die rather than live life and earn their way to heaven.

Of course. Why do you make it more complicated, if making it easy also guarantees an eternity of bliss. Does not look rational to me.

I consider that pathetic, getting something for nothing with no risks... You should be a Christian, that is basically what they believe.... saved and forgiven just by believing Jesus died for you.

Well, then tell me what advantage would a human have to grow old, if the target is the same reached by a child immediately. What is it? Useless suffering + the risk to go hell, or whatever?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course. Why do you make it more complicated, if making it easy also guarantees an eternity of bliss. Does not look rational to me.

Well, then tell me what advantage would a human have to grow old, if the target is the same reached by a child immediately. What is it? Useless suffering + the risk to go hell, or whatever?

Nobody knows what the recompense from God will be for babies and children who die so there is a risk.
There are ways to avoid hell and get to heaven that come with a better guarantee than relying solely upon God's mercy.

Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

To get the guarantee, you need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds. It's not that difficult.