Knock yourself out. Just invite me to the party.
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Special Pleading and the Problem of Evil
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I answered that the workings of the mind of God are unrelated to God's attributes and what God wills for humans.
God's attributes and what God wills for humans tells us whether God is benevolent or malevolent.
In short, the how mind of God functions does not tell us anything about God's qualities.
A malevolent being can be infallible. It just means that the being does not make mistakes. This does not help your case at all. "Not making mistakes" is already implied by omnipotence and omniscience, by the way (which begins to address your point below about "cherry picking.") Some attributes are derived attributes, meaning they stem as logical consequences of other attributes. If a being is omnipotent and omniscient, it is by definition infallible also: no need to explicitly say so when one is keeping an argument brief for digestion.
The problem with point (a) is that suffering is a means to an end for finite beings: if I want to increase my immunity to COVID-19, then I have to get stabbed by a needle because I am finite and not omnipotent, so I must suffer the needle. However an omnipotent and omniscient being doesn't need to use suffering as a means to an end; the omnipotent/omniscient being can just get straight to the end.
Secondly, regarding (a), most of the benefit humans get from suffering is just to avoid more suffering. For instance, I benefit from touching a hot burner by knowing in the future not to do that. However if the burner could never harm me in the first place (ever), then there is never any benefit to having to learn that lesson. This does not really excuse the existence of suffering.
Third, regarding (a), there are many forms of suffering that are terminal, where a person can't even learn anything from it. This is another reason why childhood leukemia was given as a relevant example. A person doesn't learn anything by suffering excruciatingly and then just dying; yet we see plenty of this in the actual world. The argument of (a) does not excuse this suffering either.
Regarding (b), this is addressed at the top of this post. Infallibility does not mean omnibenevolence. A being that is not omnibenevolent could still infallibly choose to create the conditions for leukemia, and mean to do so (it's not a mistake), and still not be benevolent for doing so. This argument doesn't do for you what you think it does for you.
Regarding (c), as I've said, many attributes are derived attributes; or otherwise they are irrelevant for the argument. Nothing I'm doing is either the fallacy of special pleading or cherry picking. Calling out fallacies incorrectly is itself a fallacy (it's basically ignoratio elenchi).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
None of this is factual. I'm not quite sure why keep making these absurd claims and do so without offering any shred of evidence. It's as if you think you are God yourself, and what you say is absolute and fact.
Can you admit these claims you make have no evidence that is substantive?[
So it wasn't a mistake that God's created world ends up with cancers? God knew cancers would develop.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, because God knows everything, but God's knowledge is not the cause of anything that exists.
“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
God knows everything, but God's knowledge is not the cause of anything that exists.
Because you don't like what you imagine God does, you want a God who will do what you want. Have fun with your create-a-god.
No, very few people ever see the evidence for the new Messenger of God for a long time after He appears.
Below are the seven logical reasons why we do not see billions accepting it.
1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.
2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.
3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.
4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”
5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.
6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.
7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Wonderful, a God-bashing party. If only people who bash God knew the punishment they are inflicting upon themselves.
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I already told you I don't, but I understand what came from God's mind when He spoke to Baha'u'llah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God cannot make mistakes because God is infallible:
infallible
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
infallible means - Google Search
As God's Representative for this age, Baha'u'llah is also infallible, according to Baha'i beliefs.
“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
So God created the world AND it knew that part of what it was creating would include cancers that kill children, YET somehow the God didn't cause the cancers to develop even though this same God created this world with these mechanisms with this future that it knew would happen?
ONLY when the God is NOT also the Creator. The Creator is accountable for the entirety of the creation.
I'm following your beliefs/claims of God. And I'm contrasting your beliefs/claims with reality and there are serious flaws with your idea of God.
So there are no mistakes in what God creates?
"Do you understand the mind of God?"
So could you be mistaken in what you think God is?
What if he is a fraud?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That means that whatever you see that you don't like in the creation (e.g., cancer) cannot be a mistake even if you think it is. Everything is as it should be, whether you like it or not. Mature people accept reality.
God could create people with ready-made spiritual attributes so they won't have to acquire them by suffering.
The hundred-dollar question is why should God eliminate suffering just because you don't like suffering.
A being that is omnibenevolent could still infallibly choose to create the conditions for leukemia, and mean to do so (it's not a mistake), and still be benevolent for doing so. This argument doesn't do for you what you think it does for you.
Everything you present is a personal opinion. By stark contrast, what I have is based upon scriptures of many different religions. No religion teaches that God is malevolent. You think you can prove God is malevolent with your logic, but you haven't proven anything except that you have a chip on your shoulder. I used to have the same chip so I can recognize it, but I worked long and hard to get rid of it because I knew I was wrong. It was only my ego telling me I was right.
TRIALS A GIFT FROM GOD
“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity. This test is just as thou hast written: it removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter 372 how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372
It sounds like you're saying that God was incompetent or negligent instead of wilfully evil. Is that it?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I could not be mistaken unless the Bible and the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are all mistaken about the character of God. It is much more likely that you and Meow Mix are mistaken because you have created a god that does not exist, an imaginary god.
I have eliminated any possibility of that by doing my homework.
II know how to do homework because I spent 20 years in college.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not saying either one. Only atheists make up god's attributes like a child dresses up a Barbie doll.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, God cannot make mistakes, only humans make mistakes because they are fallible.
Have you decided the Bible, Qu'ran, and Baha'u'llah are accurate, reliable, and true, even though you are fallible mortal who makes mistakes?
What if we are correct?
What if you are just telling yourself that you are certain, and Baha'u'llah is a fraud?
What if you are mistaken about God?
After all, God created the world and somehow cancers showed up on its watch.