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spin offs

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, it's practically the entire story of all the Bible in a way. Broken trust in God, and then finally now a full reconciliation and restored relationship with Him.
Yes, I was just reading about Cain and Abel. Whereas Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to God, but Cain's was not. Cain killed Abel. Jesus spoke of this at Matthew 23:35. He really made his position known in that chapter. It is a very powerful condemnation.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'd rather have a copy of a Van Gogh than have to pick a religion.
Sometimes the religion picks you. Take, for instance, the battle between Moses, the children of Israel, and Pharaoh and his forces. The children of Israel had a choice, they often resisted the path God was setting for them through Moses, but if they listened and obeyed, it worked out well for them.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
Yes, I was just reading about Cain and Abel. Whereas Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to God, but Cain's was not. Cain killed Abel. Jesus spoke of this at Matthew 23:35. He really made his position known in that chapter. It is a very powerful condemnation.

Lol that was not a sin offering, it was just an offering (which connotates praise and worship, as ancient people thought).

Also you may want to look into this: Animal sacrifice - Wikipedia
It's not at all exclusive to Judaism.
You ignore how commonplace animal offerings are in all ancient cultures.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Lol that was not a sin offering, it was just an offering (which connotates praise and worship, as ancient people thought).

Also you may want to look into this: Animal sacrifice - Wikipedia
It's not at all exclusive to Judaism.
You ignore how commonplace animal offerings are in all ancient cultures.
I did not say it was a sin offering. On the other hand, killing an animal and offering it to God for praise, as you say, is pretty severe. Unless, of course, it means more than praise. But then, people sacrifice their lives and those of others in various ways, not just animals, isn't that true? Hey -- have a nice day. ! :--) Enjoy the sunshine.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
I did not say it was a sin offering. On the other hand, killing an animal and offering it to God for praise, as you say, is pretty severe. Unless, of course, it means more than praise. But then, people sacrifice their lives and those of others in various ways, not just animals, isn't that true? Hey -- have a nice day. ! :--) Enjoy the sunshine.


Well I don't disagree with you on that point, no.

(I don't view animal sacrifice as innately "severe" though, any more or less than killing animals for food - but as a non-Jew and non-Christian, I strongly disagree that there are any objective theological aspects to it)

You have a nice day too :)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

Can you explain a little on the change of the "Original"? You do know that this would call for a huge discussion on what is the "Original".

Anyway, the foundation would be to see what you do mean by "Original" and what exactly was the "change"!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Can you explain a little on the change of the "Original"? You do know that this would call for a huge discussion on what is the "Original".

Anyway, the foundation would be to see what you do mean by "Original" and what exactly was the "change"!
Hello, firedragon! Maybe I can help indigochild with an answer, although likely she won't agree, but anyway -- maybe it makes sense to you somewhat. (It makes sense to me, but then, I'm a believer.) It seems, unless there is a serious abnormality, we human beings have an inborn conscience, just as we are born with bones and a heart. That conscience type thing stems back to Adam and Eve. It's all very interesting as the timeline develops from that point. And then the two children, Cain and Abel, had problems. Their form of worship was not elaborate. Not too much is written about that beyond that. But before that, Adam and Eve had instructions from God. But God was pretty solid when He also told them what not to do. That is, they were not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It all starts there. :) It was a few thousand years after that until a form of worship was enjoined upon the large population called the Israelites. It's all very interesting...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hello, firedragon! Maybe I can help indigochild with an answer, although likely she won't agree, but anyway -- maybe it makes sense to you somewhat. (It makes sense to me, but then, I'm a believer.) It seems, unless there is a serious abnormality, we human beings have an inborn conscience, just as we are born with bones and a heart. That conscience type thing stems back to Adam and Eve. It's all very interesting as the timeline develops from that point. And then the two children, Cain and Abel, had problems. Their form of worship was not elaborate. Not too much is written about that beyond that. But before that, Adam and Eve had instructions from God. But God was pretty solid when He also told them what not to do. That is, they were not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It all starts there. :) It was a few thousand years after that until a form of worship was enjoined upon the large population called the Israelites. It's all very interesting...

I understand. And I say "Oh Dang" because I called Indigo child brother too. I have been doing this to many people and I can't believe they tolerated it.

Anyway, I understand what you say. I am looking for a direct, specific elucidation to what this "change" is. Lets take Islam as in the OP, what is the change of the "Original" that was done by Muhammad if I may?
 

Gandalf

Horn Tooter
All you are seeing is the actuality of ancient religions play out, just like how variance in myths started out with polytheism and pagan practices. It is just that the current trend is monotheism and now you will see the same thing played out again albeit with much fewer gods. All religions branch from each other and even with that you get a difference of personal beliefs.

I for example disagree with 99.99% of most my fellow Muslims on some fundamental core concepts I am sure.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original?
Are you sure? My neighbor just told me he has the original, and it looks nothing like yours. So many shows to choose from, I don't know which one to take seriously? Fortunately, I had an idea. How about I don't take any of them seriously until more evidence are shown to support it. I guess I'll just get on Netflix and binge watch all those shows. When it comes to entertainment, I always did like movies and shows that falls under the genre, "Fantasy." A nice combination of good fight scenes and sex scenes. Obviously, some shows have more violence and obscenity than others, especially the remakes, reboots, reimagining, homage etc, scenes.

Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?
You do have a point. I would rather have the original Van Gogh, but since there are so many copies and forgeries out there, I would rather not pay my life's fortune for one and telling people I have the original, when there is no way of knowing if it's the original or not.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

In some cases that true.

But from what I understand, Judaism weren’t made for everyone. It was religion mainly for the descendants of Jacob and for the Jewish people, a covenant that god made with patriarchs: the law and land.

So it really don’t apply to Christians, Muslims and other non-Abrahamic people.

In many ways that’s a good thing, because Christianity and Islam attempting to convert everyone, which can have negative effects, like they sometimes forcibly convert people, through wars and intimidation, thereby their messages of peace is really pretentious and illusionary.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
All you are seeing is the actuality of ancient religions play out, just like how variance in myths started out with polytheism and pagan practices. It is just that the current trend is monotheism and now you will see the same thing played out again albeit with much fewer gods. All religions branch from each other and even with that you get a difference of personal beliefs.

I for example disagree with 99.99% of most my fellow Muslims on some fundamental core concepts I am sure.
In actuality, many Jews disagreed both with Jesus then and now, even though the Bible says he came to his own, but they knew him not. If the Almighty were not God, we would not have the Bible for assurance, just as he can extend his holy spirit as he wants. Keep searching, keep looking,
New International Version
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Luke 11:9)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Are you sure? My neighbor just told me he has the original, and it looks nothing like yours. So many shows to choose from, I don't know which one to take seriously? Fortunately, I had an idea. How about I don't take any of them seriously until more evidence are shown to support it. I guess I'll just get on Netflix and binge watch all those shows. When it comes to entertainment, I always did like movies and shows that falls under the genre, "Fantasy." A nice combination of good fight scenes and sex scenes. Obviously, some shows have more violence and obscenity than others, especially the remakes, reboots, reimagining, homage etc, scenes.


You do have a point. I would rather have the original Van Gogh, but since there are so many copies and forgeries out there, I would rather not pay my life's fortune for one and telling people I have the original, when there is no way of knowing if it's the original or not.
Yes, what is the original? Clearly, it is necessary to go back to...Adam and Eve, Abraham and more for "original."
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
In many ways that’s a good thing, because Christianity and Islam attempting to convert everyone, which can have negative effects, like they sometimes forcibly convert people, through wars and intimidation, thereby their messages of peace is really pretentious and illusionary.

Which completely goes against Surah 2:256 and Surah 109, among many other things.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, what is the original? Clearly, it is necessary to go back to...Adam and Eve, Abraham and more for "original."
If we're going with the "spinoff" analogy, Adam and Eve would be the retconned back story that was added after the fact... the midicholrians of Canaanite religion, if you will.
 

Gandalf

Horn Tooter
In actuality, many Jews disagreed both with Jesus then and now, even though the Bible says he came to his own, but they knew him not. If the Almighty were not God, we would not have the Bible for assurance, just as he can extend his holy spirit as he wants. Keep searching, keep looking,
New International Version
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Luke 11:9)

I am more than aware as I had just said that. Christianity itself is a result of Jews differing in opinion to the point Jesus became a controversial and divisive figure. That division is what we call Christianity, essentially the religion that denies Hebrew ethnocentrism and accepts divine incarnation.

Albeit the concept comes up again repeatedly. This is a controversial concept in Islam is also one in which I disagree with so unlike many Muslims I do accept divine incarnation although still not like how Christians do.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am more than aware as I had just said that. Christianity itself is a result of Jews differing in opinion to the point Jesus became a controversial and divisive figure. That division is what we call Christianity, essentially the religion that denies Hebrew ethnocentrism and accepts divine incarnation.

Albeit the concept comes up again repeatedly. This is a controversial concept in Islam is also one in which I disagree with so unlike many Muslims I do accept divine incarnation although still not like how Christians do.
There is basically one set of writings called the Bible. It counts human history and relationship with the true God back to Adam. If it were so easy to understand and grasp all the ideas in it then the Ethiopian eunuch would have had no need to ask how could he understand without someone to help him?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am more than aware as I had just said that. Christianity itself is a result of Jews differing in opinion to the point Jesus became a controversial and divisive figure. That division is what we call Christianity, essentially the religion that denies Hebrew ethnocentrism and accepts divine incarnation.

Albeit the concept comes up again repeatedly. This is a controversial concept in Islam is also one in which I disagree with so unlike many Muslims I do accept divine incarnation although still not like how Christians do.
Also the difficulty between the children of Israel and Pharaoh. Demonstrating the true God and how He relates to religion. The beginning chapters of Exodus describe the conflict.
 

Gandalf

Horn Tooter
There is basically one set of writings called the Bible. It counts human history and relationship with the true God back to Adam. If it were so easy to understand and grasp all the ideas in it then the Ethiopian eunuch would have had no need to ask how could he understand without someone to help him?

You are aware I have read the Bible multiple times and grew up with a Christian family and proceeded to study the ever living crap out of the Abrahamic lineage including the gnostics? I am just saying
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is basically one set of writings called the Bible. It counts human history and relationship with the true God back to Adam. If it were so easy to understand and grasp all the ideas in it then the Ethiopian eunuch would have had no need to ask how could he understand without someone to help him?
Actually, there are many sets of writings called "the Bible." and it brings forth several perspectives on God and gods. Then, at some later point, it takes all these Sumerian and Babylonian ideas of deity and gloms them all together into "God." YHVH is a different God than El. Who is a different God from ... God. So, the concept of "true God" is a rather ineffable concept in the Bible.
 
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