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Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I did not know that Muslims believed that. Baha'is also believe that Adam was in heaven first; that is, the soul of Adam was in heaven before it came to earth to be united with Adam's body, and then Adam's soul united with His body and He was born on earth.
The reason Baha'is believe that is because we believe that Adam was a Prophet and the souls of all Prophets have preexistence in heaven:
(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ
existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We
cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)
********
I will be working on responding to your posts to me that I got yesterday. :)
I also have my own forum, so I got bogged down answering posts there much of yesterday.

You have a forum? Cool. What is it about?

From what I understand, the Bab claimed to be the Shia Mahdi first? If that is the case there should be similarities between Baha's and Islam. As for Adam being in heaven first, that is at least what my Sunni colleague told me, as he was comparing their view to Genesis.

He actually told me an interesting thing about preexistence. Apparently they believe that everyone pre existed with Allah, then he sent the souls to earth in human bodies as a test so that whoever passes the test can gain eternal heavenly paradise with Allah again. But ironically, when we first told him that the Bible says Jesus preexisted, he argued that point.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You have a forum? Cool. What is it about?
It is about anything people want to talk about, but we mostly talk about God, religion, and spiritual matters. However, the forum has been pretty dormant for quite a while because I ran off to post on other forums. Right now, it is mostly just me and one friend.
From what I understand, the Bab claimed to be the Shia Mahdi first? If that is the case there should be similarities between Baha's and Islam.
Yes, that is true, and there are some similarities, but many differences, especially since the Baha'i Faith is based upon the Revelation of Baha'u'llah which is a step beyond the Revelation of the Bab. The Bab's religion was kind of a transition between Islam and the Baha'i Faith, a stepping stone.
As for Adam being in heaven first, that is at least what my Sunni colleague told me, as he was comparing their view to Genesis.He actually told me an interesting thing about preexistence. Apparently they believe that everyone pre existed with Allah, then he sent the souls to earth in human bodies as a test so that whoever passes the test can gain eternal heavenly paradise with Allah again. But ironically, when we first told him that the Bible says Jesus preexisted, he argued that point.
I never heard of such a belief. Baha'is believe that only Manifestations of God have pre-existent souls that have always existed in the spiritual world with God, which is where they get their special powers. All other souls come into being at the moment of conception. Of course Jesus was pre-existent. I saw this posted on a Christian forum and I agree with it, although the Christians there dis not agree with it: The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
It is about anything people want to talk about, but we mostly talk about God, religion, and spiritual matters. However, the forum has been pretty dormant for quite a while because I ran off to post on other forums. Right now, it is mostly just me and one friend.

Yes, that is true, and there are some similarities, but many differences, especially since the Baha'i Faith is based upon the Revelation of Baha'u'llah which is a step beyond the Revelation of the Bab. The Bab's religion was kind of a transition between Islam and the Baha'i Faith, a stepping stone.

I never heard of such a belief. Baha'is believe that only Manifestations of God have pre-existent souls that have always existed in the spiritual world with God, which is where they get their special powers. All other souls come into being at the moment of conception. Of course Jesus was pre-existent. I saw this posted on a Christian forum and I agree with it, although the Christians there dis not agree with it: The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ

Sounds like a cool forum.

Regarding the belief about pre-existence, the guy just randomly told us after arguing with us that Jesus couldn't pre-exist. So it must have been something he deeply looked into and discovered or he is confused.

There are actually quite a few views of Jesus pre-existence. Some even believe that he only pre-existed in a prophetic sense. For me the most interesting view is that he was the Metatron/Logos. At the moment I would piece the Christian god as this:

The Ancient of Days is the origin who sits on the throne, who is portayed as ancient. He doesn't speak. His thoughts are expressed through the personification of his word which is the Logos. This word is the intermediary between thought and action. Action is manifest in the Holy Spirit, which is then the tool. So:

The Father: Consciousness of God/ origin point
The Son: God's words personified and communicates.
Holy Spirit: The body of God in the sense that it does action.

This would be why both the Father and the Son are said to be the creator of the universe and that the Son is subordinate to the Father while all three are still God.

To me that is how the Bible portrays Jesus as pre-existing, but obviously I came to that conclusion through theory using implication of certain verses.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I am sorry to hear that. Why is the crime rate so high?
Do you speak primarily English there?

Crime is high because we have loads of uneducated people here because of what the Apartheid government did years ago and the economy is erratic because of Jacob Zuma. Here in Cape Town people speak mainly English, Afrikaans and Xhosa. The whole country has 11 official languages though.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes, why not? I know that was a joke but the ancient Greek deities where pretty hardcore-porn, if you know what I mean (even having sex with corpses and raping people, massive homosexual orgies etc)

Maybe if you wish, you could convert to that?

No tnx, I'll stick to FSM.

Pirates, rivers of beer and hookers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Please clarify what you mean by curse? I think that needs clarifying because there are multiple ways of viewing the word "curse". Christianity also claims the two natures. the "lower material sinful nature" is called "the flesh" and the "higher noble spiritual nature" is called associated with "being made in God's image" or "being lead by the spirit" (read Romans regarding this). What you say is almost, not quite, in line with what the Bible indicates actually. The difference is that in the bible man is sinless for a period while on earth and then disobeys Gods and then the downward spiral with humanity starts.
When I say curse I mean the curse Christians believe came upon humankind because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate the apple. I mean the curse that had to be lifted by Jesus sacrificing Himself on the cross, and their belief that if Jesus had not died on the cross we would all remain cursed and go to hell. But because Jesus died on the cross, Jesus removed the curse by taking on the sins of humanity which they never actually committed themselves, which is what makes original sin so unjust. Are you to blame for something your father or mother did?

If you read this chapter you will understand what I believe: 30: ADAM AND EVE

If a downward spiral started it was not because Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree. No just God would punish all of humanity for the acts of two people. Imo, it is just an excuse to need Jesus to save us and then it is a free ride after that, or so Christians believe. “He did it for us” is the most selfish and irresponsible belief. We are all responsible for our own sin, as we all have a free will and a choice and we have been given the teachings we need to know how not to sin and why not to.
I see evidence of how this could theoretically be true through Psychology and genetics. Psychology explains that how one is raised and how society has influenced them makes them prone to doing things that the Bible states are sinful. Science shows us that genetically we can be disposed to giving into certain sins easier, such as having a shorter fuse or being more lustful. It could be that the psychological aspect produced the genetic aspect (I don't know, but certainly it has been proven that how one thinks has physical affects, such as the results of stress).
Psychology and genetics do explain a lot of our behavior, but we all still have free will to rise above that behavior and act morally. It will be easier for some people than others because of their childhood and their inherited tendencies but I believe God understands this. Only God can judge because only God can know what anyone has to work with, since God is All-Knowing.

So if our original parents sinned first then it has a snowball affect as is shown in from when Adam and Eve sinned to the whole world being so violent that God wishes to destroy it. The bible shows a sharp escalation. In this way, Adam and Eve are responsible for our sinful nature plus we have to be punished for when we give into it, in the same way that people are punished today for crimes even though they might have been heavily influenced into doing so by their parents or have a genetic disposition to do so as inherited genetically by their parents. So it makes sense to me.

So it makes sense to you that just because Adam and Eve ate an apple the whole world of being became so violent that God wished to destroy it? I do not know the Bible much at all so I cannot have an opinion on what it says, but I cannot believe that God really did that and I cannot believe that Adam and Eve are responsible for our sinful nature, except in the sense that I said, that Adam was born into the world of good and evil, the material world, and that attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, all of us.
Well, Christians are allowed to judge, such as when Jesus constantly judged the Pharisees or when the apostles judge members of the congregations through their writings. Jesus and the elect have also been given authority to judge in the end times. The way to judge who is Christian or not is through what the Bible says. So there are disqualifying factors.

So for instance: 2 John 7 - 10. Obviously if a person denies then that Christ came in the flesh they are not Christian. If one doesn't believe in a God they are not Christian. There are many disqualifying factors.
I think that Jesus could judge because Jesus was speaking for God, but I do not think anyone else has the right to judge others because they cannot know what is in their hearts or everything about their lives and what they have to endure. Only God can know that. What the Bible says can be interpreted and applied in many different ways, and the Bible says so many things. Of course, to be a Christian one has to believe in God and that Jesus came in the flesh, but do you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh?
The Witnesses believe that they have "the Truth", as they call their faith constantly, so they believe that they already know more than anybody else. So they don't consider other religions as anything as they are all deceptions of Satan. They are encouraged to spend time teaching "rightly dispose" individuals who are fairly open to their viewpoint. They consider those who question too much (even if the questions are valid and they have no answer for it) argumentative, opposers or apostates. They do not entertain alternative viewpoints to them so therefore they are ignorant to a certain extent and believe that they are the only ones with a proper viewpoint. Consider this when discussing with a JW and pay attention to how many times they concede when you make a valid point. This is the overall view of JW's and what they are encouraged to do by the Watchtower Organisation but there are many individuals in the group who aren't like this.
That is the impression I got from the few JWs on this forum. They do not see a problem with arrogance because they believe that only they have the truth. I don’t understand how anyone can believe this, it is so illogical and it would be unjust if God was really behind this. Satan is always a convenient excuse to condemn other people.
Well, they believe that God wants all to be saved, which is why they preach, but they have to meet a certain standard before He will save them. JW's have sort of a weird outlook to this (since I wasn't raised a Witness I didn't have that view of non Witnesses, which always bugged me). Read publications and watch JW videos. In many cases they portray non Witnesses as morally inferior by making blanket statements about "Worldly" people. Yet in many cases they say there are those who are morally OK. They do not encourage Witnesses to make friends with non Witnesses because they say they are bad association.
I do not know what to make of such a belief; it is so foreign to me and so different from what I believe. I do not even believe in “saved.” I feel that way about being attached to the world because Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about the world and how we should be detached from it, but I would never consider myself morally superior and others inferior. That is what I meant about not judging.
Quoted example in a 2013 Watchtower publication:

w13 2/15 24

"Our choice of associates. Of course, some contact with unbelievers—such as at school, at work, and when sharing in the ministry—is unavoidable. It is quite another matter, though, to socialize with them, even cultivating close friendships with them. Do we justify such association by saying that they have many good qualities? “Do not be misled,” warns the Bible. “Bad associations spoil useful habits.” (1 Cor. 15:33) Just as a small amount of pollution can contaminate clean water, friendship with those who do not practice godly devotion can contaminate our spirituality and lead us into adopting worldly viewpoints, dress, speech, and conduct."
I totally disagree with that because my best friends are nonbelievers. Good people are good people, and belief in God does not make someone a good person. So the only reason to talk to nonbelievers would be to hopefully convert them? It sounds really haughty to me.
Witnesses do not believe in "Hellfire" hell, but they do believe that those who are not deserving will be destroyed. The Reward received is actually eternal life as John 3:16 states. Those who do not tow the line do not receive that reward of eternal life, therefore they cannot be eternally in hell.
I think they are going to be surprised when they die. I think they also believe they will rise from the dead and live on earth in physical bodies forever in a renewed garden of Eden, boy will they be surprised when that doesn’t happen.
Well, I am actually going back to basics. It is what I was forced to do when i left the Witnesses as my whole world view was turned upside down.
Will reply to the rest in my next post.
I can only imagine how your world view would be turned upside down. I hope you are bringing it back on course now. I will get to your other posts, hopefully tomorrow. I wanted to at least get to one of them. :)
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
When I say curse I mean the curse Christians believe came upon humankind because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate the apple. I mean the curse that had to be lifted by Jesus sacrificing Himself on the cross, and their belief that if Jesus had not died on the cross we would all remain cursed and go to hell. But because Jesus died on the cross, Jesus removed the curse by taking on the sins of humanity which they never actually committed themselves, which is what makes original sin so unjust. Are you to blame for something your father or mother did?
To me, the curse referred to here, is the same as me being cursed with being genetically prone to anger by inheriting those genetics from my father. Also the curse of original sin is that we sin ourselves, so we would be paying the price for our own sins, therefore Jesus would be taking on the sins that we committed. I am not to blame for something that my parents did, but I am to blame for harming someone in a fit of rage, even though the genetics which I inherited from my father makes me prone to doing so. In an extreme case, a serial killer/rapist would still be held responsible for raping and killing someone even though he was raped and physically abused by his father which lead to him doing those things.

If you read this chapter you will understand what I believe: 30: ADAM AND EVE
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-30.html

If a downward spiral started it was not because Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree. No just God would punish all of humanity for the acts of two people. Imo, it is just an excuse to need Jesus to save us and then it is a free ride after that, or so Christians believe. “He did it for us” is the most selfish and irresponsible belief. We are all responsible for our own sin, as we all have a free will and a choice and we have been given the teachings we need to know how not to sin and why not to.
I would say that it does theoretically make sense, because the most dangerous things are seeds of ideas, and the idea of disobedience would logically cause a downward spiral. It is the idea of subverting authority. This has been proven many times in actual history, such as with the Reformation or the Napoleonic Wars for instance. Revolutions start with ideas and have repercussions for generations. Also, the Bible does not say that Christians get a free ride. Just read James where it says that the man who cannot control his tongue is not religious. Christians cannot be willfully sinful and expect to be saved. There are many denominations which do not teach free ride Christianity also.

Psychology and genetics do explain a lot of our behavior, but we all still have free will to rise above that behavior and act morally. It will be easier for some people than others because of their childhood and their inherited tendencies but I believe God understands this. Only God can judge because only God can know what anyone has to work with, since God is All-Knowing.
The Bible constantly encourages people to rise above immoral behaviour because it knows that people can. But we all know that we are limited in that regard. And the judgement we make on others is based of what God says we can judge by. That is why he placed human authorities over us, so that they can judge and keep law and order. If man cannot judge then law and order gets thrown out the window.

So it makes sense to you that just because Adam and Eve ate an apple the whole world of being became so violent that God wished to destroy it? I do not know the Bible much at all so I cannot have an opinion on what it says, but I cannot believe that God really did that and I cannot believe that Adam and Eve are responsible for our sinful nature, except in the sense that I said, that Adam was born into the world of good and evil, the material world, and that attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, all of us.
Yes, remember that when Adam and Eve ate the apple, they rejected Gods authority and that would have big repercussions. I have experienced that when I rejected Watchtower authority. It was as if I did a complete 360. We have seen revolutionary ideas lead to mass bloodshed in humanity's past. Plus the according to the Bible story the Nephilim were influencing the earth therefore it was under demonic influence, a supernatural influence which corrupted man. Also, I am not asking you to believe the above, as i don't necessarily believe it, but I am informing you of what the bible says and how it theoretically makes sense.

I think that Jesus could judge because Jesus was speaking for God, but I do not think anyone else has the right to judge others because they cannot know what is in their hearts or everything about their lives and what they have to endure. Only God can know that. What the Bible says can be interpreted and applied in many different ways, and the Bible says so many things. Of course, to be a Christian one has to believe in God and that Jesus came in the flesh, but do you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh?
As i said, we must be able to judge in this world otherwise we wouldn't be able to enforce law and order. What we cannot do though is say who will be in paradise. Only God can judge THAT. I would say that the Bible states that Jesus is God in the flesh, but the Trinitarian view of that makes no sense according to the Bible. And a Unitarian perspective also makes no sense according to the Book. Since God can do anything by definition, he has to be able to manifest in the flesh, unless he limits himself. Then one has to give a definite reason why God would limit himself in such a way.

That is the impression I got from the few JWs on this forum. They do not see a problem with arrogance because they believe that only they have the truth. I don’t understand how anyone can believe this, it is so illogical and it would be unjust if God was really behind this. Satan is always a convenient excuse to condemn other people.
I agree with you here. It never made sense to me either, unless someone was saying they followed what the Bible says yet clearly contradicted it. They are illogical. And they are so because they are a cult.

I do not know what to make of such a belief; it is so foreign to me and so different from what I believe. I do not even believe in “saved.” I feel that way about being attached to the world because Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about the world and how we should be detached from it, but I would never consider myself morally superior and others inferior. That is what I meant about not judging.
Thing is, the bible doesn't imply that God's people are morally superior. It actually says that all are sinners, therefore all are worthy of death. Also, if God's people were morally superior, he wouldn't have rejected Israel on occasion and there wouldn't have been so many problems in the early Christian church. In fact the reason many people have a problem with the Bible is that it blatantly shows God's people as having moral faults. If that is what you mean by not judging, then I agree.

I totally disagree with that because my best friends are nonbelievers. Good people are good people, and belief in God does not make someone a good person. So the only reason to talk to nonbelievers would be to hopefully convert them? It sounds really haughty to me.
Romans two says that even non believers have the law of God written on their heart. And they are being haughty. Jesus never acted like they do.

I think they are going to be surprised when they die. I think they also believe they will rise from the dead and live on earth in physical bodies forever in a renewed garden of Eden, boy will they be surprised when that doesn’t happen.
Maybe.

I can only imagine how your world view would be turned upside down. I hope you are bringing it back on course now. I will get to your other posts, hopefully tomorrow. I wanted to at least get to one of them. :)
Dude, even i am trying to comprehend it. I actually am gradually discovering more and more how it has flipped. In ways I never thought. And it is actually exciting so i am enjoying the experience. Thanks for making the effort with replying. My posts are long winded. My apologies.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Christ says:
John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."

Mark 10:45: "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

So Christ died as a ransom. The idea of him dying for our sins is because he is associated with the sacrifice of a lamb, which was slain for forgiveness of sins. On the day of Atonement especially all sins were forgiven.
Jesus came to take away the sin of the world, but that does not mean that was the original sin that Christians believe was the curse that came as the result of Adam and Eve eating an apple in the garden.

Yes, my belief about sin fits Christianity but deducts some aspects, namely the doctrine of original sin. I do not have time to go into a lot of detail right now, so I will just post some more passages from the Writings of Baha’u’llah that explain what I believe was the significance of Jesus’ mission and the cross sacrifice:

First, I do believe that Jesus offered Himself up as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

Second, this passage explains the full significance of the cross sacrifice.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming w
ith light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
As for the idea of original sin, I will only hold the interpretation of the Jews view in regard. The muslims have very little knowledge about the Bible and their arguments against it are predictable because they get them mostly from scholars like Ahmed Deedat. All "informed" muslims I have encountered and watched in debates reveal a very ignorant, proof text based understanding of the Bible and they take phrases out of context. This is largely because they first and foremost hold the Quran to be definitely true. They reject anything that contradicts the Quran to be false. Therefore, since the Quran contradicts the Bible, they claim the Bible to be wrong automatically.
I have to opt out when it comes to the dispute between Muslims and Christians regarding the accuracy of the Bible. I believe that the Qur’an is the Word of God and it is a lot more authentic than the Bible, but nevertheless, Baha’u’llah had some harsh words to say to the Muslims who said that the Bible had been corrupted, so this is what I go by. Addressing the Muslims, He wrote:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

“Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 88

I love how the Jews interpret the bible and most people I know who really want to study the bible love hearing their viewpoints too. One can learn so much from them. But they do make weird statements though. For instance they say that sacrifices are for involuntary sins. Yet the Atonement sacrifice below contradicts that:

Leviticus 16:18-22
Interesting thing about the above though is that it is not a lamb, but a bull and a goat which is used for sin.
Personally, the entire idea of sacrifices is foreign to me because I have always been a Baha’i and we have no such beliefs as are found in the Bible. All the Manifestations of God, including Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah sacrificed their lives for the Cause of God, and that is what I consider the real sacrifice. I see no need for animal sacrifices, this is based upon superstitious beliefs and it is animal abuse.
There is one prophecy directly about the Messiah in Daniel and it says that he had to come before the second temple was destroyed which is Daniel 9:25-26. If Jesus wasn't the Messiah then who was? Also the book of Revelation points to what will happen in the end days and that is centredaround Christ being the saviour to usher in the New Heavens and New Earth. Jesus makes reference to himself as the Leader Messiah in Daniel in Matthew 23:10. Later in Matthew 23 and Mark 13:14 he refers to Daniel again, and in this case he tells his apostles to watch out for the "Disgusting thing that causes desolation". With Daniel 9 having the only scripture I know of mentioning the messiah I would believe that Jesus is the final one. In Matthew 28:18 Jesus says that all authority has been given to him. Couple this with what the rest of the apostles write about him relating the end times then there is no doubt that what is written about him is that he is the end days messiah. In fact the Jews rejected him because he was challenging their tradition and he wasn't the political Messiah who would save only the Jews which is what they wanted.
I do not have time to go into all this right now, but we can discuss it later if you want to. Briefly, Jesus was ‘a Messiah’ but Jesus was not ‘the Messiah’ the Jews were waiting for, and Jesus is not going to come back later and do the things the Jews require to fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies. Baha’u’llah was the Messiah and the Promised One of all the religions and He fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. Some of the prophecies for the Messianic Age are starting to be fulfilled, but we are only 175 years into an age that is going to last thousands of years, so the fulfillment of many of the Messianic Age prophecies is yet to unfold.

Christians believe that all those prophecies will be fulfilled immediately when Jesus returns because they believe Jesus who is God is omnipotent so He can do anything; so they believe Jesus will wave a magic wand and make all the problems that humans have created in the world since the beginning of the Adamic Cycle of religion disappear immediately. Jews have a different belief. They believe all the Messianic Age prophecies will be fulfilled and the world will become a paradise during the lifetime of the Messiah, and the Torah will be restores. Both religions are unrealistic and wrong, moreover no scriptures say it will happen that way. I have asked them to provide such scriptures saying it will happen that way, but none have been forthcoming.

In brief, Baha’is believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on Earth, following the blueprint instructions of Baha’u’llah; we also call that the New World Order. The Old World Order will have to come down before a new one can rise in its stead and we can already see that process unfolding all over the world. It has been going on since the Coming of Baha’u’llah.
The base foundation is the fall of man from obedience to disobedience, Noah's flood, the lives of the patriarchs, the Exodus, the Mosaic law, the events of Jesus life, the apostles understanding of the meaning of Jesus sacrifice. So the "scarlet thread" so to speak. One cannot understand the ending without understanding the beginning and the in between. Mainly it is eschatology that is open to interpretation and not a base foundation. The explicit essentials are probably even less that I mentioned.
So do you believe that all these events such as Noah’s flood described in the Old Testament actually took place, that it is historical fact?
Wow! This was long winded!
Not compared to me.... I think you might have finally met your match. :D The only reason these posts are not even longer is because I hit the 12,000 character limit!

I am going to continue answering your posts, in the order they were received.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Jesus came to take away the sin of the world, but that does not mean that was the original sin that Christians believe was the curse that came as the result of Adam and Eve eating an apple in the garden.

Yes, my belief about sin fits Christianity but deducts some aspects, namely the doctrine of original sin. I do not have time to go into a lot of detail right now, so I will just post some more passages from the Writings of Baha’u’llah that explain what I believe was the significance of Jesus’ mission and the cross sacrifice:

First, I do believe that Jesus offered Himself up as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

Second, this passage explains the full significance of the cross sacrifice.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming w
ith light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

I have to opt out when it comes to the dispute between Muslims and Christians regarding the accuracy of the Bible. I believe that the Qur’an is the Word of God and it is a lot more authentic than the Bible, but nevertheless, Baha’u’llah had some harsh words to say to the Muslims who said that the Bible had been corrupted, so this is what I go by. Addressing the Muslims, He wrote:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

“Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 88


Personally, the entire idea of sacrifices is foreign to me because I have always been a Baha’i and we have no such beliefs as are found in the Bible. All the Manifestations of God, including Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah sacrificed their lives for the Cause of God, and that is what I consider the real sacrifice. I see no need for animal sacrifices, this is based upon superstitious beliefs and it is animal abuse.

I do not have time to go into all this right now, but we can discuss it later if you want to. Briefly, Jesus was ‘a Messiah’ but Jesus was not ‘the Messiah’ the Jews were waiting for, and Jesus is not going to come back later and do the things the Jews require to fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies. Baha’u’llah was the Messiah and the Promised One of all the religions and He fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. Some of the prophecies for the Messianic Age are starting to be fulfilled, but we are only 175 years into an age that is going to last thousands of years, so the fulfillment of many of the Messianic Age prophecies is yet to unfold.

Christians believe that all those prophecies will be fulfilled immediately when Jesus returns because they believe Jesus who is God is omnipotent so He can do anything; so they believe Jesus will wave a magic wand and make all the problems that humans have created in the world since the beginning of the Adamic Cycle of religion disappear immediately. Jews have a different belief. They believe all the Messianic Age prophecies will be fulfilled and the world will become a paradise during the lifetime of the Messiah, and the Torah will be restores. Both religions are unrealistic and wrong, moreover no scriptures say it will happen that way. I have asked them to provide such scriptures saying it will happen that way, but none have been forthcoming.

In brief, Baha’is believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on Earth, following the blueprint instructions of Baha’u’llah; we also call that the New World Order. The Old World Order will have to come down before a new one can rise in its stead and we can already see that process unfolding all over the world. It has been going on since the Coming of Baha’u’llah.

So do you believe that all these events such as Noah’s flood described in the Old Testament actually took place, that it is historical fact?

Not compared to me.... I think you might have finally met your match. :D The only reason these posts are not even longer is because I hit the 12,000 character limit!

I am going to continue answering your posts, in the order they were received.

In anticipation for your other replies, and knowing we can drag this out and get lost, I will try and get to the bottom of these issues, addressing the real conflicting points.

I think that what Christians think original sin is, what you think original sin is, and what you and Christians think original sin is is not actually what the Bible says. The Bible does say that sin started with one man, which is obvious, but how that affected humanity is at issue.

With regards to how we view scripture, I believe that they are all at fault, but all are fascinating as much as a masterpiece of writing such as Paradise Lost or Dante's inferno is. (My viewpoint has changed even since we last chatted.) So I am in no way saying that the Bible has the correct view of reality.

As for the idea of sacrifice, it is actually an essential tenet of the whole Bible, from the earliest scriptures of Judaism, down to Christianity. It is so important that if one does not understand the importance of it, one cannot understand or interpret the Bible.

I won't discuss prophecy since that is a HIGHLY subjective subject. It is interesting to me though that you believe that the messianic prophecies are being fulfilled, since Baha'i was founded in the 1800's, the same time as the Adventist Movement, Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses (Bible Students) were founded. These were all movements focused on the end times (Don't know if that is true with Mormonism exactly). I just find it very interesting that all these movements sprung up in the same century. What is EXTREMELY interesting is that you use a term called the NEW WORLD ORDER. The JW's call it the NEW ORDER. Those are Freemason terms. I have pretty much linked the JW's to Freemasonry through research. Also, like the Freemasons, Baha'i believe in progressive revelation and Freemasons believe that all deities are actually the same. These are other interesting comparisons. They might be relevent or not at all to me.

As for Paradise, the Bible makes constant reference to it. In Christianity it is very obvious such as in the book of revelation. If an omnipotent God exists, then nothing is unrealistic.

Regarding the flood, what I find interesting is that even though scientists conclude that there wasn't a flood in history, loads of independent religions believe in a similar myth. That alone intrigues me and says there is something to the whole story.

This post was a just a breather, just in case you were wondering that I met my match :p

I am looking forward to your further responses. Keep well.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In anticipation for your other replies, and knowing we can drag this out and get lost, I will try and get to the bottom of these issues, addressing the real conflicting points.

I think that what Christians think original sin is, what you think original sin is, and what you and Christians think original sin is is not actually what the Bible says. The Bible does say that sin started with one man, which is obvious, but how that affected humanity is at issue.
So, are you saying that sin began with Adam? How do you think that affected humanity?
With regards to how we view scripture, I believe that they are all at fault, but all are fascinating as much as a masterpiece of writing such as Paradise Lost or Dante's inferno is. (My viewpoint has changed even since we last chatted.) So I am in no way saying that the Bible has the correct view of reality.
So, what do you think is incorrect in the Bible view of reality? Not that there is only one way to interpret the Bible and its view of reality.
As for the idea of sacrifice, it is actually an essential tenet of the whole Bible, from the earliest scriptures of Judaism, down to Christianity. It is so important that if one does not understand the importance of it, one cannot understand or interpret the Bible.
Sorry, but my unfamiliarity with the Bible precludes my knowing why the idea of sacrifice is so important. Can you explain that in brief?
I won't discuss prophecy since that is a HIGHLY subjective subject. It is interesting to me though that you believe that the messianic prophecies are being fulfilled, since Baha'i was founded in the 1800's, the same time as the Adventist Movement, Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses (Bible Students) were founded. These were all movements focused on the end times (Don't know if that is true with Mormonism exactly). I just find it very interesting that all these movements sprung up in the same century. What is EXTREMELY interesting is that you use a term called the NEW WORLD ORDER. The JW's call it the NEW ORDER. Those are Freemason terms. I have pretty much linked the JW's to Freemasonry through research. Also, like the Freemasons, Baha'i believe in progressive revelation and Freemasons believe that all deities are actually the same. These are other interesting comparisons. They might be relevent or not at all to me.
I think that the reason these movements were all springing up at the same time is because the mid-nineteenth century, and 1844 to be exact, is when Christ was expected to return. I think many of the religious movements other than Baha’i picked up on the spirit of the age, so they have some similarities, but of course I believe that Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of the return of Christ and the Messiah, the Promised One of All Ages and all religions: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
As for Paradise, the Bible makes constant reference to it. In Christianity it is very obvious such as in the book of revelation. If an omnipotent God exists, then nothing is unrealistic.
What do you think that Paradise is, the afterlife in heaven?
Regarding the flood, what I find interesting is that even though scientists conclude that there wasn't a flood in history, loads of independent religions believe in a similar myth. That alone intrigues me and says there is something to the whole story.

I have to claim ignorance on this topic, except for what Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

This post was a just a breather, just in case you were wondering that I met my match.

I am looking forward to your further responses. Keep well.
I did wonder what happened to you and missed you. I had saved your older posts to respond to but held back because I was not sure you were coming back. That seems to happen a lot on these forums.
Glad you are back. :)
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
So, are you saying that sin began with Adam? How do you think that affected humanity?
Going according to Romans 5:12, I would say that the bible says that sin entered the world through one man, and death entered the world and people started to die. This is because they all sin. The way his sin affected humanity, is that all carried his rebellious traits as a result. His disobedience changed their mental nature. Once obedient, men came to be lawless. Please note, this is what I see as the Bibles viewpoint and I can see it making sense from a psychological standpoint, but it is not what I believe to be true, as I don't consider myself a Christian. I try to understand a religion based on its worldview, not my own.

So, what do you think is incorrect in the Bible view of reality? Not that there is only one way to interpret the Bible and its view of reality.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that there is anything incorrect about the Bible's view of reality, but it is just one of many possibilities. There is nothing to say that its viewpoint is objectively true, much like with all religions. Believing the Bible would be based on circumstantial evidence. For instance, one creator God existing is a possibility. But there is no reason for me to say that that is obviously true. To me there being multiple Gods, a flying Spaghetti monster or any other intelligence creating the Universe could be true. What definitely does not make sense to me is that existence resulted from nothing.. But I also cannot comprehend a being existing with no beginning.

Sorry, but my unfamiliarity with the Bible precludes my knowing why the idea of sacrifice is so important. Can you explain that in brief?
Ok. So as soon as Adam sinned Cain and Abel saw it as important to make sacrifices to God. Cain sacrificed vegetation while Abel sacrificed the firstfruit of his flock of sheep. Abel was killed by Cain because God approved of Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. This starts a few chapters into Genesis. This was the first case of sacrifices. After the flood Noah sacrifices animals to God. Abraham made sacrifices, and the story of his son Sacrificing Isaac, but then God covering's Isaacs sacrifice with a lamb, is well known story. Here god supplied the sacrifice. Isaac and Jacob offered sacrifices on altars. So sacrifice mainly of animals, especially lambs, was a part of the patriarchs worship. It helped them mend their relationship with God. In the Law of Moses, sacrifice was an integral part of society. If one sinned, they had to make a ritual sacrifice. And there were different rituals of sacrifice for different sins. If you want to read up on this then read Leviticus, as the whole chapter is about the sacrifices. In fact, the priests existed to make sacrifices on Israels behalf to improve their relationship with God. Then there were whole observances and ceremonies which resulted in animal sacrifices, which were the most important part. The Day of Atonement required one sacrifice and one scapegoat on behalf of the whole nation, so that the could all be forgiven for all their sins. The prophets often make reference to sacrifice in their books too. Sacrifice has symbolic significance too as it lays outs God's plan to redeem mankind. Jesus death takes place on Passover, which is the day that Firstborn lambs were sacrificed to save all of Israel. Jesus actions surrounding his death and his death itself coincide with the ceremonies of Israel, and sacrifices were a big part of this. All the actions in the temple ceremonies, which sacrificing was a part of, had a symbolic significance, so when the curtain of the temple was torn in two at his death for instance, knowing the sacrificial ceremonies well and the role of the priests in those ceremonies would make one see the meaning of that veil being torn at Jesus death. It basically meant that his death, which was a sacrifice (which is why Jesus is called the lamb that comes to take away the sin of the world), destroyed what prevented us from having access to a relationship with God. Now all those who wish have free access to a relationship with God without making a sacrifice, as Jesus was a sacrifice for all time. Paul heavily explains the symbolic importance of ceremonies in Hebrews. So in further summary, sacrifices were important because it helped to cleanse one of sin which helped people to develop a relationship with God and they symbolically represent the ultimate sacrifice, which was Jesus, which helped all who wish gain full access to salvation, which is the ultimate relationship with God. I hope that helps. It is an extremely extensive topic and the most important topic in the Bible from a worship standpoint.

I think that the reason these movements were all springing up at the same time is because the mid-nineteenth century, and 1844 to be exact, is when Christ was expected to return. I think many of the religious movements other than Baha’i picked up on the spirit of the age, so they have some similarities, but of course I believe that Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of the return of Christ and the Messiah, the Promised One of All Ages and all religions: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
http://prophecy-fulfilled.com/ In 1844 the Millerite movement started, which almost all the other movements were influence by. And yes, they did expect Christs return. These people were also mainly fundamentalist, but in different ways. Knowing history and the Bible now though, and their history and doctrine, I see their viewpoints as just a reaction against the increase of nominal Christians, not anything true. In fact nominal Christians usually joined them out of emotion and ignorance. Scholarly Christians never would as they know the history of the church and the Bible too well.

What do you think that Paradise is, the afterlife in heaven?
I don't know if their is a paradise. I hope there is an afterlife of some sort. I don't like thinking of death. The Bible's view of paradise seems to be that heaven and earth will be renewed and united. The faithful will rule with Christ on God's throne and enforce judgement. Then the earth will be sin free and restored to how God wanted it.


I have to claim ignorance on this topic, except for what Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-87.html.utf8?query=disregard&action=highlight#pg175 I agree that the accounts of different mythologies differ greatly. Which is why it, if they generally agree that a flood occurred with only a few surviving, forget about specifics of when it happened as long as it happened ages ago according to them, it makes the flood story even more astonishing.

Read below:
List of flood myths - Wikipedia


I did wonder what happened to you and missed you. I had saved your older posts to respond to but held back because I was not sure you were coming back. That seems to happen a lot on these forums.
Glad you are back. :)
I am genuinely shocked that I was missed! Thanks for the message :). What happens is that during the middle of the month i tend to run out of data so i am not able to access the internet. I am just beginning to participate regularly on religious forums now that I am not a JW so I will definitely not disappear. Studying religion is a passion of mine after all. I am glad to be back!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Going according to Romans 5:12, I would say that the bible says that sin entered the world through one man, and death entered the world and people started to die. This is because they all sin. The way his sin affected humanity, is that all carried his rebellious traits as a result. His disobedience changed their mental nature. Once obedient, men came to be lawless. Please note, this is what I see as the Bibles viewpoint and I can see it making sense from a psychological standpoint, but it is not what I believe to be true, as I don't consider myself a Christian. I try to understand a religion based on its worldview, not my own.
I’m back, and I am sorry it took this long to get back to you. I never did forget you though as I kept your post in a Word document, ready to answer as soon as I had time. I noticed you were posting on some other threads but I did not have time to get involved in those, and besides, I know so little about the Bible I cannot talk intelligently about it like other people on those threads, so I normally just read them when I have time.

So do you really think that the only way to interpret Genesis is to say that sin entered the world because Adam disobeyed God and moreover that is the reason people started to die physically? I see no way to interpret it to say that it applies to physical death. If nobody had ever died physically, how could new people have been born? I think it means spiritual death, not physical death. Everything went south because of this interpretation of it meaning physical death because then the assumption was that Jesus had to die and resurrect so bodies could be resurrected form their graves. This is ludicrous at best. What Paul wrote can also be interpreted to mean spiritual life and spiritual death, nothing physical.

So now that you are no longer a Christian, what do you believe about all of this? I know that JWs believe that the Kingdom of God will come on earth and they will live forever in physical bodies on earth, in a restored Garden of Eden. As a Baha’i I believe the Kingdom of God will be built by humans on earth as it is in heaven, and it will be a new world order that is for the generations to come, not for dead people.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
I wouldn't go so far as to say that there is anything incorrect about the Bible's view of reality, but it is just one of many possibilities. There is nothing to say that its viewpoint is objectively true, much like with all religions. Believing the Bible would be based on circumstantial evidence. For instance, one creator God existing is a possibility. But there is no reason for me to say that that is obviously true. To me there being multiple Gods, a flying Spaghetti monster or any other intelligence creating the Universe could be true. What definitely does not make sense to me is that existence resulted from nothing.. But I also cannot comprehend a being existing with no beginning.
You sure have veered far away from monotheistic religion! So you no longer believe in the one God who created the Universe. I have to say that nothing else such as many gods really makes any sense to me, but of course I have always been a Baha’i.

I also cannot comprehend a God existing with no beginning but it is a Baha’i belief that God had no beginning so God and His Creation have always existed. That does not mean that life on earth has always existed, it evolved over time, but Baha’u’llah wrote that there is life on other planetsand that there are many worlds of God. I think He was referring to spiritual worlds though because He said we would discover them after we die.

“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.

As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 150-151
Ok. So as soon as Adam sinned Cain and Abel saw it as important to make sacrifices to God. Cain sacrificed vegetation while Abel sacrificed the firstfruit of his flock of sheep. Abel was killed by Cain because God approved of Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. This starts a few chapters into Genesis. This was the first case of sacrifices. After the flood Noah sacrifices animals to God. Abraham made sacrifices, and the story of his son Sacrificing Isaac, but then God covering's Isaacs sacrifice with a lamb, is well known story. Here god supplied the sacrifice. Isaac and Jacob offered sacrifices on altars. So sacrifice mainly of animals, especially lambs, was a part of the patriarchs worship. It helped them mend their relationship with God. In the Law of Moses, sacrifice was an integral part of society. If one sinned, they had to make a ritual sacrifice. And there were different rituals of sacrifice for different sins. If you want to read up on this then read Leviticus, as the whole chapter is about the sacrifices. In fact, the priests existed to make sacrifices on Israels behalf to improve their relationship with God. Then there were whole observances and ceremonies which resulted in animal sacrifices, which were the most important part. The Day of Atonement required one sacrifice and one scapegoat on behalf of the whole nation, so that the could all be forgiven for all their sins. The prophets often make reference to sacrifice in their books too. Sacrifice has symbolic significance too as it lays outs God's plan to redeem mankind. Jesus death takes place on Passover, which is the day that Firstborn lambs were sacrificed to save all of Israel. Jesus actions surrounding his death and his death itself coincide with the ceremonies of Israel, and sacrifices were a big part of this. All the actions in the temple ceremonies, which sacrificing was a part of, had a symbolic significance, so when the curtain of the temple was torn in two at his death for instance, knowing the sacrificial ceremonies well and the role of the priests in those ceremonies would make one see the meaning of that veil being torn at Jesus death. It basically meant that his death, which was a sacrifice (which is why Jesus is called the lamb that comes to take away the sin of the world), destroyed what prevented us from having access to a relationship with God. Now all those who wish have free access to a relationship with God without making a sacrifice, as Jesus was a sacrifice for all time. Paul heavily explains the symbolic importance of ceremonies in Hebrews. So in further summary, sacrifices were important because it helped to cleanse one of sin which helped people to develop a relationship with God and they symbolically represent the ultimate sacrifice, which was Jesus, which helped all who wish gain full access to salvation, which is the ultimate relationship with God. I hope that helps. It is an extremely extensive topic and the most important topic in the Bible from a worship standpoint.
Thanks for explaining all of that but why would these sacrifices improve anyone’s relationship with God? Why would God need sacrifices offered to Him moreover killing His own creation, humans and animals? This makes no sense. Is it is really true that God required sacrifices or even that these things in the OT actually took place? If so, it is enough to make an atheist out of me. :eek: Again, the Bible is pretty foreign to me, the OT more so than the NT. All this stuff you described sounds like mere superstition, but of course I am a Baha’i and we have nothing like this in the Baha’i Faith. One of the important Baha’i principles is that if religion contradicts science it is mere superstition. Of course, some things like God, the soul and the afterlife (spiritual world) fall outside the purview of science, but they do not contradict science, as does physical bodies rising from their graves or Jesus coming down out of the sky riding upon clouds.

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In 1844 the Millerite movement started, which almost all the other movements were influence by. And yes, they did expect Christs return. These people were also mainly fundamentalist, but in different ways. Knowing history and the Bible now though, and their history and doctrine, I see their viewpoints as just a reaction against the increase of nominal Christians, not anything true. In fact nominal Christians usually joined them out of emotion and ignorance. Scholarly Christians never would as they know the history of the church and the Bible too well.
Are you saying that you do not think there would have been any reason for people to be expecting the Second Coming? I cannot agree with that because so many prophecies were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah and that cannot be explained by any way other than He was who He claimed to be... There are just too many and they fit perfectly. Many of them are explained in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears, but there have also been other books written on the subject such as Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
I don't know if their is a paradise. I hope there is an afterlife of some sort. I don't like thinking of death. The Bible's view of paradise seems to be that heaven and earth will be renewed and united. The faithful will rule with Christ on God's throne and enforce judgement. Then the earth will be sin free and restored to how God wanted it.
Of course, I do not know what verses would indicate a renewed earth for people who have died and been resurrected is what is going to happen, and it could be the way Christians have interpreted the Bible. Moreover, some Christians believe they go to heaven, a place away from earth, although they don’t know anything about it.

Jesus never promised to return anywhere in the NT and when I have asked Christians to provide verses that say He will return they cannot do it. Jesus said we would see the Son of man coming in the clouds, but that does not refer to Jesus, it refers to Baha’u’llah, who was also the Son of man, as that just means a perfect man.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.As I understand it, JWs do not believe that Jesus in the same body is coming back to earth, and at least they got that right.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Then in the next chapter you have this verse which clearly says that Jesus is not coming back to this world to build a Kingdom. I think that because I was never a Christian I have an advantage, because I can look at the verses more objectively.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The mission of Jesus was to bear witness to the truth about God and spiritualize humanity, not to build a Kingdom on earth. Indirectly, Jesus denies being a King, yet Christians still believe He was a King! How can they deny the clear meaning of these verses without saying the Bible is wrong? I find this amazing. I really think it is all psychological. They want what they want and they are not willing to give it up and look at the evidence. What most Christians believe is thus based upon emotions, not on reason.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
I am genuinely shocked that I was missed! Thanks for the message
C:\Users\Home\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png
. What happens is that during the middle of the month i tend to run out of data so i am not able to access the internet. I am just beginning to participate regularly on religious forums now that I am not a JW so I will definitely not disappear. Studying religion is a passion of mine after all. I am glad to be back!
I am also glad you are back. I do form relationships with people on forums and it does not take that long with some people. I can easily sense personalities by what and how people write, and I tend to gravitate more towards some people than others. More often than not I gravitate towards nonbelievers but there are certain believers I also get along with very well.

I have no data limitations but I have time limitations. :eek:

I am much more interested in spiritual things than in the material world; in fact, sine I got so involved in forums, I have all but lost interest in the material world, except for nature and animals. I love animals and have many.

I was never very interested in religion but in recent years I have become more interested. I got interested in religion when I came to forums about six years ago but I think I am more interested in the people then their religions. Psychology was my other hat and one I wore a lot longer than my Baha’i hat. I have been a Baha’i for over 48 years, but for most of that time it was in name only, as I had fallen away from the Faith... that is a long story, perhaps for another day. :)
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I’m back, and I am sorry it took this long to get back to you.
No worries :) I understand that people are busy and honestly with the stuff we are discussing on this forum, time is needed to reply affectively. So I appreciate the effort.

So do you really think that the only way to interpret Genesis is to say that sin entered the world because Adam disobeyed God and moreover that is the reason people started to die physically?
How one interprets it is circumstantial. A Christian HAS TO interpret it that way because if it isn't true then the New Testament fails as it is a New Testament scriptural intepretation by Jesus and the Apostles. Jews do not have to interpret it that way and I don't know what they believe about it. It certainly is interpreted as a spiritual death as well by Christians. The way one sees it as a physical death is first at face value, and then when reading the punishment that God promised Adam. God said that in the day Adam sinned he would surely die. At face value we would interpret that as a physical death. One would need further clarification of what that means by scripture to support that it is only a spiritual death. Obviously Adam didn't die on the actual day. But it is interesting that he did die at the age 930. The oldest people in the Bible live just short of 1000. Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 says that a thousand years is like a day to God. So interpreters would consider the day that Adam died as not an earthly day but a day relative to God.

This is ludicrous at best. What Paul wrote can also be interpreted to mean spiritual life and spiritual death, nothing physical.
Your reaction here is too strong from my perspective. Each religion has set premises which it follows which can be valid in theory because theoretically a God can do anything. The limitations of that God is dependent on what the religion reveals about its concept of God. So I wouldn't say it is ludicrous. It is ludicrous according to your belief system and possibly your worldview. Reading Romans I have no reason to view what Paul spoke of as being a spiritual death, you would have to demonstrate this to me to prove your point.

So now that you are no longer a Christian, what do you believe about all of this?
I can tell you what I believe the Bible says about the topic. Revelation 21:2 says "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.". Verse 3 says "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them....God himself will be with them". Verse 10 says" the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. Verse 24 says "the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour to it". So I believe the Bible says that the heavenly Jerusalem will descend from heaven onto earth, God will dwell with mankind, and the earth will be renewed (Revelation 21:1)

You sure have veered far away from monotheistic religion! So you no longer believe in the one God who created the Universe.
My believe in God stemmed from my belief in a book. I didn't believe in God and then try to find a religion. I believe d the Bible to be a book very peculiar, could only be from God, therefore I adopted its perspective of God. If it was a polytheistic book i would have believe in polytheism. As you do not understand why people believe in many Gods, I cannot comprehend why people believe that monotheism for the sake of monotheism is a good thing. It isn't superior or more logical or more possible than polytheism.

That does not mean that life on earth has always existed, it evolved over time, but Baha’u’llah wrote that there is life on other planetsand that there are many worlds of God.
What is interesting is that the Bible only mentions heaven where God resides, the heavens (space), and earth. In fact it only focuses on earth and what affects mankind on earth. It doesn't actually say what heaven is, doesn't say that there aren't other alien races on other planets. So that is possible from a biblical perspective.

Thanks for explaining all of that but why would these sacrifices improve anyone’s relationship with God? Why would God need sacrifices offered to Him moreover killing His own creation, humans and animals? This makes no sense. Is it is really true that God required sacrifices or even that these things in the OT actually took place? If so, it is enough to make an atheist out of me. :eek: Again, the Bible is pretty foreign to me, the OT more so than the NT. All this stuff you described sounds like mere superstition, but of course I am a Baha’i and we have nothing like this in the Baha’i Faith. One of the important Baha’i principles is that if religion contradicts science it is mere superstition. Of course, some things like God, the soul and the afterlife (spiritual world) fall outside the purview of science, but they do not contradict science, as does physical bodies rising from their graves or Jesus coming down out of the sky riding upon clouds.
I do not know the Jewish pespective but do know the Christian perspective. It can imagine sounds crazy if one says that sacrifice has physical attributes that mend our relationship with God. But that isn't how it is explained in the NT. Jesus and Paul explain it as a Ransom and a legal matter. There is a debt that has to be paid. The Law of God demands our death because we sin, so sacrifices are used as substitute deaths for that demand. An animals life is lesser than a mans therefore it can only redeem him partially, which is why sacrifices of animals are repeated. Jesus was a perfect man, undeserving of death, therefore his death could be a perfect once off substitute for all mankind, satisfying the Law of God. Therefore Christians debt is his death death, which means that their debt to Gods Law (their death) has been paid. Therefore we they live in his life, which means that Christ owns them. Therefore he is their leader. Trinitarians would say that since Jesus is God, it means that God paid our debt to his own Law and he redeemed them.

I do understand this is complicated though. I am constantly trying to simplify the reasoning and explain it better.

There is reason to believe that the sacrificial system is a product of the Israelites previously Pagan belief, as some scholars believe that Monotheism is a result of the evolution of religion, which means that it developed from Paganism, incorporating certain pagan customs.
 
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