Spin the Wheel

[Samael_Khan]

Are you saying that you do not think there would have been any reason for people to be expecting the Second Coming?

I am not saying that. I am saying that there are certain patterns that are common among them that show that they were reactionary to something and many beliefs they have are not biblical even though they claim it to be. (I am not including baha'i in this as I don't know much about the religion.) Since they have dangerous cult elements I would not view them as Christian, but cults started by manipulatuve cult leaders who deceive others for their own gain. Basically they do not show the fruits that true Christians should.

I cannot agree with that because so many prophecies were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah and that cannot be explained by any way other than He was who He claimed to be... There are just too many and they fit perfectly.

Many contradictory beliefs believe the same as you do. JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, various doomsday cults, Muslims, and the second coming, or Christ's presence, is interpreted in many ways by them as well. They all believe that prophesies refer to their prophet or group and fit them perfectly. But they fit perfectly circumstantially and only focusing on one possible interpretation of prophecies. So I ask: Have you just investigated your own understanding of prophecy? Have you investigated other groups interpretation of prophecy as well? Have you investigated any material that claims to refute your understanding of prophecy? Do you think that you might be selectively choosing proof texts while ignoring other verse? Do you have accurate understanding of the context of certain verses in order to make such a claim? And are you referring to the Bible or other books that contain prophecy?

Of course, I do not know what verses would indicate a renewed earth for people who have died and been resurrected is what is going to happen, and it could be the way Christians have interpreted the Bible. Moreover, some Christians believe they go to heaven, a place away from earth, although they don’t know anything about it.

The renewed earth would be Revelations 21:1. Heaven would also get renewed. Since it is prophecy this could be metaphorical. But I like to take things at face value first and then interpret them. The problem I see with they way those Christians interpret the Bible to say that Christians will go to heaven, which the bible says they will, is that the Bible also says stuff like "the meek shall inherit the earth" which they clearly haven't. Also, what is the point of God creating a New Earth if humans won't live on it? As far as I can tell, they aren't dealing with those scriptures. That is why I see the Bible saying that the Holy Jerusalems of the Heavens, where Christ resides, will descend to earth, which i explained in a reply to your previous post connected to this post.

Jesus never promised to return anywhere in the NT and when I have asked Christians to provide verses that say He will return they cannot do it.

This depends on what view of eschatology a Christian has. Sooda would show you a preterist view of eschatology which interprets all biblical prophecy stating what already happened. So they are written after the fact according to that view. I would propose reading the whole book of Revelation to show that Christ would return. Especially read Revelations 20 where Christ rules with the Saints for 1000 years. Christ and the Saints institute a 1000 years of peace after Armeggedon and lock Satan and the demons up. Then after 1000 years Satan gets released to wreak havoc and God destroys him. So study the 1000 year rule of Christ to study his second coming.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father.

This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.As I understand it, JWs do not believe that Jesus in the same body is coming back to earth, and at least they got that right.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

His work was to glorify God on the earth, which he did through preaching and miracles. This he accomplished. It refers to the time frame of his ministry, or at least it can be interpreted that way in light of scriptures such as Matthew 25: 31-36. Plus the book of Revelation directly says that Jesus would return in the future.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

He says that at that moment he currently (I am no more) was no more in the world. But that does not mean he won't be in the world once again.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Yes at that point his Kingdom was not of the world. It is spiritual. But then it will descend to earth in revelation 21. Also the world he is referring to is a world ruled by Satan as he does say Satan is ruler of the world (1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9; 2 Corinthians 4:4). Eventually Jesus will rule the world as per Revelation 21 and 22.

The mission of Jesus was to bear witness to the truth about God and spiritualize humanity, not to build a Kingdom on earth. Indirectly, Jesus denies being a King, yet Christians still believe He was a King! How can they deny the clear meaning of these verses without saying the Bible is wrong?

In Revelation Jesus is definitely King (revelations 20) as he rules for 1000 years. You are confusing Jesus not being a King at the time he was on earth with what the bible says he will be in the future. When he was on earth the majority of Jews believed in a political Messiah, they wanted to make him King of the physical Jewish nation, and a rejected that Kingship because that wasn't his goal on earth.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

At that time he wasn't King. He was only instituted as heavenly King after his death. That was the plan.

Note 1 Corinthians 15:24 - "But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to Godthe Father after He has destroyed all dominion,authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.…"

It is actually cool to form relationships with people on this forum. I have discussed with a few people in the short time i have been here and can tell what type of people they are as well.

I have no time limitations though

Its cool that you like spiritual things. People these days focus too much on the material in my mind. I tend to care more about concepts and ideas and the arts, so i study religion from a self expression viewpoint of the writer.

I love animals too. I think people who don't have a problem.

Sounds like an interesting story you have there. Would be interested in hearing it as I am interested in both why people join religions and why they reject them. Do you ever try to understand religions and why people believe them from a psychological standpoint?