Spirit or Superstition?

[Bethsheba Ashe]

That's a poetic statement, but it sort of smacks of a wild-west nostrum, if you'll excuse the skepticism. I think there are different ways to skin a cat, and I think the bible is way more available than I think you're making it out to be in this post.

It's a take on Origen:

Now that we are going to begin our interpretation of the Psalms, let us preface our remarks with a very pleasing tradition respecting all Divine Scripture in general, which has been handed down to us by the Jew. That great scholar used to say that inspired Scripture taken as a whole was on account of its obscurity like many locked-up rooms in one house. Before each room he supposed a key to be placed, but not the one belonging to it; and that the keys were so dispersed all round the rooms, not fitting the locks of the several rooms before which they were placed. It would be a troublesome piece of work to discover the keys to suit the rooms they were meant for. It was, he said, just so with the understanding of the Scriptures, because they are so obscure; the only way to begin to understand them was, he said, by means of other passages containing the explanation dispersed throughout them. The Apostle, I think, suggested such a way of coming to a knowledge of the Divine words when He said, "Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." ( 1 Cor. ii. 13.)

Philocalia, Origen, pg32, The Philocalia of Origen (1911) pp. 1-237. English translation

Or not. I don't think you've proved that gematria is the raison d'etre. And you are proceeding from that assumption.

I think you might be pre-judging the thesis before assessing the evidence. If it helps, I'm sure you'll agree that there must be some reason why the paper is in the top 0.5% on Academia.edu, so please try and keep an open mind until you've read it? But I like your skepticism btw.

 

[sojourner]

It's a take on Origen:

Now that we are going to begin our interpretation of the Psalms, let us preface our remarks with a very pleasing tradition respecting all Divine Scripture in general, which has been handed down to us by the Jew. That great scholar used to say that inspired Scripture taken as a whole was on account of its obscurity like many locked-up rooms in one house. Before each room he supposed a key to be placed, but not the one belonging to it; and that the keys were so dispersed all round the rooms, not fitting the locks of the several rooms before which they were placed. It would be a troublesome piece of work to discover the keys to suit the rooms they were meant for. It was, he said, just so with the understanding of the Scriptures, because they are so obscure; the only way to begin to understand them was, he said, by means of other passages containing the explanation dispersed throughout them. The Apostle, I think, suggested such a way of coming to a knowledge of the Divine words when He said, "Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." ( 1 Cor. ii. 13.)

Philocalia, Origen, pg32, The Philocalia of Origen (1911) pp. 1-237. English translation



I think you might be pre-judging the thesis before assessing the evidence. If it helps, I'm sure you'll agree that there must be some reason why the paper is in the top 0.5% on Academia.edu, so please try and keep an open mind until you've read it? But I like your skepticism btw.

Origen or no, that's not how the exegetical process works, in general.

I'll reserve further comment until I've read the stuff in question.

 

[sealchan]

Thank you for your wishes towards my success, but I don't understand what the subconscious has to do with this. The calculations are analysed objectively according to the scribal conventions of the time. No subconscious prompting is necessary.

I have a couple of papers about biblical gematria on academia.edu if you are interesting in learning about that:

The Gematria Substrate
The Genesis Wheel Part I

And there's a thread here about it too; Biblical Gematria

Would you say that the Bible was written by "nerds"? I noticed in Genesis 26 a big numeric pattern on the organization of the story. That struck me as a geeky way to build "meaning" into the text.

 

[sealchan]

True but the god most everyone here believes in is the creator god which is only known of because of the bible.

Which makes me think, if some here don't believe the stories in the bible, why believe in the god the bible teaches about?

Personal experience plus the traditional beliefs of millions of non-Abrahamic religious believers.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Would you say that the Bible was written by "nerds"? I noticed in Genesis 26 a big numeric pattern on the organization of the story. That struck me as a geeky way to build "meaning" into the text.

I think they didn't have modern distractions and had a longer attention span. I also think its possible that the art of gematria was something that young men would do to vie with each other. At times, it's like Ezekiel is showing off. Nerds is a bit too strong but definitely well along the nerdy scale, yeah.

 

[We Never Know]

Personal experience plus the traditional beliefs of millions of non-Abrahamic religious believers.

Walk into most church's in the U.S. and they will be reading from the bible and praising the god the bible teaches of.

 

[sealchan]

Walk into most church's in the U.S. and they will be reading from the bible and praising the god the bible teaches of.

And hopefully some of them might walk out of there with some inkling as to why they just did that other than because that's what everyone else has and is doing. A large percentage of those people just as mindlessly assume the historicity of the Bible and for that large percentage historicity = truth. That doesn't bode well for those churches.

 

[sealchan]

I think they didn't have modern distractions and had a longer attention span. I also think its possible that the art of gematria was something that young men would do to vie with each other. At times, it's like Ezekiel is showing off. Nerds is a bit too strong but definitely well along the nerdy scale, yeah.

Yes...and sometimes that sort of tinkering with the text works when one senses a structural or poetic rhythm to the text, but I assume it is all quite lost on the vast majority of those who read and study the Bible as it is imperceptible to those who are merely reading it for its meaning and relevance to one's life.

As a nerd myself I get how one can find interest in such things. Also, as a scholar, I find it very useful to demonstrate the design in the text as helping to understand why that text is the way that it is. It does, as you say, point away from historical accuracy as being an important factor.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Yes...and sometimes that sort of tinkering with the text works when one senses a structural or poetic rhythm to the text, but I assume it is all quite lost on the vast majority of those who read and study the Bible as it is imperceptible to those who are merely reading it for its meaning and relevance to one's life.

As a nerd myself I get how one can find interest in such things. Also, as a scholar, I find it very useful to demonstrate the design in the text as helping to understand why that text is the way that it is. It does, as you say, point away from historical accuracy as being an important factor.

May I ask, what kind of analysis you are doing with Gen 26? I know someone who is counting letters* as part of a reconstruction of scribal techniques. I find that interesting though it's not my area of expertise.

-----------------------------------
* i.e. : 1בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃ 2והארץ היתה תהו ובהו וחשך על פני תהום ורוח אלהים מרחפת על פני המים
= 80 letters.

 

[74x12]

True, but there are technical difficulties that argue against that. For instance, each time a scribe says "in-between" it means divide by 2. Or when they say לא "not" it means to disregard the next word. "all" means use several words together while "on" means subtract from the next word. The math notation dictates the meaning of the text.

Still ... you're speaking of numerology. Assuming everything you say here is true --which I don't know yet-- but still they could be speaking of disregarding the word for the sake of the numerology correct? That doesn't necessarily mean disregard the word in any other capacity.

That's great to hear. To the locked door of the Bible there is just one key. Have
a nice day.

I can appreciate that you're convinced of that.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yes, I'm going to bed too, so that would be preferable. Good night.

Hope you slept well.

The Bible tells an easily-understood story.

That mankind was given a perfect beginning as unique physical and intelligent children of God, but God's sovereignty over them was challenged (read Genesis 3, and see if you can figure out some of the issues that were raised. I bet you can, you seem bright and perceptive).

The only sure way for the issues to be settled, especially the issue of sovereignty (if man can basically rule himself or not), would take time.

That's why Jehovah God has not interfered when bad things happen....he has to allow the record show that man's few advancements and many sufferings and failures is all man's own.

There's a lot more, but I'm depleted right now! I'm not very adept at writing (I prefer speaking face to face) so if you wouldn't mind I'd like to let either @Deeje , @nPeace , @tigger2 or @URAVIP2ME to continue. They can speak for me.

So-long, take care.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Still ... you're speaking of numerology. Assuming everything you say here is true --which I don't know yet-- but still they could be speaking of disregarding the word for the sake of the numerology correct? That doesn't necessarily mean disregard the word in any other capacity.


I can appreciate that you're convinced of that.

I'm not speaking of numerology. I'm speaking of biblical gematria which is a very different matter. Numerology involves things like... working out the number of your life path and other nonsense. Also not all books of the bible are written with Gematria. Things are much more complex than you're assuming. The song of Solomon doesn't have Gematria. Different scribes use different styles of gematria. In some parts of the books that have gematria it is densely embedded while in others you might see a light smattering. In the gospel of John and especially in Revelation there is a lot of gematria but I can't find any in Matthew. So I'm not claiming every page of the bible has Gematria. There's quite the treasure trove but there needs to be a major study to find out exactly how much and where it all is. The job is going to be like the human genome project before we have an exact picture of what we've got. However, every time a scribe says "behold" its worth getting out the calculator, and happenings that are just plain weird or supernatural are red flags.

 

[Deeje]

My take on the Bible is very simple.....I don't believe that hidden codes achieve any greater understanding of it than the words themselves.

The Bible's message is simple, written for simple people with a basic understanding of a Creator God who simply said..."do as I ask"....."obey my laws". Because he loved his intelligent creation like children, nothing he asked of them was to their harm.

To hide things behind the words in some sort of numerical code and not give his worshippers the key is senseless to me. What do people outside of his worshippers know or care about God or the Bible anyway?
Instead of understanding the Bible's simple message, you end up with a complicated formula that only intellectuals can understand. Christendom has done the same by making "theology" something for which one needs a college degree. That excludes the very people that the Bible was written for.

I apply Jesus words....
"I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children." (Matthew 11:25)

Sometimes it's a handicap to be "wise and intellectual" because the simple things can insult your intelligence. You may find the deeper things more to your liking but it doesn't make anyone superior.

God wanted knowledge to be available to all.....he doesn't care about our intelligence....he cares about our heart more than he cares about our intellectual achievements. The KISS principle applies IMO.

I am happy to be a young child.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

My take on the Bible is very simple.....I don't believe that hidden codes achieve any greater understanding of it than the words themselves.

The Bible's message is simple, written for simple people with a basic understanding of a Creator God who simply said..."do as I ask"....."obey my laws". Because he loved his intelligent creation like children, nothing he asked of them was to their harm.

To hide things behind the words in some sort of numerical code and not give his worshippers the key is senseless to me. What do people outside of his worshippers know or care about God or the Bible anyway?
Instead of understanding the Bible's simple message, you end up with a complicated formula that only intellectuals can understand. Christendom has done the same by making "theology" something for which one needs a college degree. That excludes the very people that the Bible was written for.

I apply Jesus words....
"I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children." (Matthew 11:25)

Sometimes it's a handicap to be "wise and intellectual" because the simple things can insult your intelligence. You may find the deeper things more to your liking but it doesn't make anyone superior.

God wanted knowledge to be available to all.....he doesn't care about our intelligence....he cares about our heart more than he cares about our intellectual achievements. The KISS principle applies IMO.

I am happy to be a young child.

As a child I taught myself to program and I realized a very simple truth that was to inform most of my life as a mystic. And that is that the logical "AND" is almost always preferable to the logical "OR". Why divide the world into complex and simple terms if you can develop insight into seeing the world both ways and draw connections between them? Like a telescope. Zoom in (detailed view) AND Zoom out (simple view) AND everything in-between. Have your cake AND eat it.

Personally I decline to speak for God because I think that would be arrogant of me, and I wouldn't want to insult God's intelligence. Maybe you could explain when he gave you the role of his mouthpiece?

 

[loverofhumanity]

He was a pain in the neck and the Jews wanted rid of him, he had no say in his crucifixion, imo. I hope Jesus had nothing in common with the evil Biblical god.

Many still model their daily lives on the teaching of the evil racist, Hitler, and his Nazi followers. I am of the opinion Hitler would have been very proud of a certain racist president!

Consider how single handed and alone and without any power or wealth His Word alone conquered the world whereas Hitler with the greatest of armies and enormous wealth could not. The son of a poor carpenter conquered the world with His tongue whereas an army general with huge wealth and massive armies could not.

What did Jesus have that Hitler did not? The power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deeje]

As a child I taught myself to program and I realized a very simple truth that was to inform most of my life as a mystic.

Program what? What is a mystic exactly?

And that is that the logical "AND" is almost always preferable to the logical "OR".

Sometimes there is no "AND".

Why divide the world into complex and simple terms if you can develop insight into seeing the world both ways and draw connections between them?

Because God does.

Like a telescope. Zoom in (detailed view) AND Zoom out (simple view) AND everything in-between. Have your cake AND eat it.

Its amazing how some people think that they can do that.

Personally I decline to speak for God because I think that would be arrogant of me, and I wouldn't want to insult God's intelligence. Maybe you could explain when he gave you the role of his mouthpiece?

Ouch.....viper's tongue too.....? I wasn't aware that I was speaking for God...just reiterating what is said in his word.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

In order to have a thought, or hold any type of idea in your head at all, it requires a duality. A mystic is someone who unites those dualities in order to get beyond the ego into a realm of formless awareness. That's why "AND" is the major tool in the toolbox of the mystic. But the ego that doesn't understand its own place in the psyche is afraid that it is not one. So the mystic has to develop an awareness of their own egoic defense mechanisms. It makes the ego feel good to speak for God, but its tries to hide its motivations for it behind self-serving justifications. On one level you were aware of what you were doing, but you didn't expect anyone to be so rude as to call you on it. Sorry. I believe in tough love sometimes.

 

[Deeje]

In order to have a thought, or hold any type of idea in your head at all, it requires a duality. A mystic is someone who unites those dualities in order to get beyond the ego into a realm of formless awareness.

Will I find this 'duality' taught in scripture? Did Jesus mention it? I can't recall....

That's why "AND" is the major tool in the toolbox of the mystic. But the ego that doesn't understand its own place in the psyche is afraid that it is not one. So the mystic has to develop an awareness of their own egoic defense mechanisms.

Well, that "AND" is missing from my toolbox...can I get one at KMart?

Where will I find mystics in the Bible speaking of these things? Where is it written that 'egos don't understand their place in the psyche'? Sounds like gobbledygook to me...sorry.
Though I do realize that you are trying to flog a book.

It makes the ego feel good to speak for God, but its tries to hide its motivations for it behind self-serving justifications.

Of course it does......

On one level you were aware of what you were doing, but you didn't expect anyone to be so rude as to call you on it. Sorry. I believe in tough love sometimes.

And how much will you charge me for that consultation Dr Ashe? Tough love.....? or a demonstration of what you just condemned?

I understand that you are serious.....but I really can't take you seriously.
I will let others decide what to make of this.

 

[JJ50]

Will I find this 'duality' taught in scripture? Did Jesus mention it? I can't recall....



Well, that "AND" is missing from my toolbox...can I get one at KMart?

Where will I find mystics in the Bible speaking of these things? Where is it written that 'egos don't understand their place in the psyche'? Sounds like gobbledygook to me...sorry.
Though I do realize that you are trying to flog a book.



Of course it does......

And how much will you charge me for that consultation Dr Ashe? Tough love.....? or a demonstration of what you just condemned?

I understand that you are serious.....but I really can't take you seriously.
I will let others decide what to make of this.

It is you who can't be taken seriously, or your unpleasant cult.

 

[Deeje]

It is you who can't be taken seriously, or your unpleasant cult.

Oh look, there's one now......another deep and penetrating comment from the gallery.....
Do you know what a troll is?

You don't like JW's.....I think we get it......ya know...?