spirit possession

[Infinitum]

If if a proper scientific examination gives the explenation of a certain type of brain activity, what causes the sudden change in brain activity if no adverse physical effects are found, and the patient says they have not experienced any traumatical experiences to have caused the change?

There won't necessarily need to be any physical effects, like drugs, present for extreme mental states. They can be tracked with a brain scanner to some extent. I'm obviously only presenting various possible outcomes and not claiming to know exactly what happened. Until there's been a scientific examination on something all there is are speculations.

 

[Ablaze]

Severe cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder) have been known to manifest later in life as a result of early childhood trauma. Depending on the identity of the "alter" (some are not even human), they can appear quite like possession.

 

[payak]

Have seen ones at ajarn noo's temple, they believed they were but very obviously were not

Severe cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder) have been known to manifest later in life as a result of early childhood trauma. Depending on the identity of the "alter" (some are not even human), they can appear quite like possession.

How do you explain him knowing things about me no one there new.

 

[danieldemol]

...no one however asked what was seen to convince sceptics.

Sorry who were the skeptics, a bunch of Bhuddists whose religion states that ghosts exist?

 

[danieldemol]

Ok,my mistake,most not all.

The woman was possessed by her father who was very upset, he wanted to know why she did not inform him she had gotten married, the monks bought his still living best friend down to calm him and explain he was dead.
Her strength was beyond retard strength.

A spirit possessing a body would have to bring it's own muscle fibres to have a strength greater than the inherent strength of the body allegedly possessed, that the woman had that strength is evidence that her body was physically capable of such strength. Perhaps in your scared state you were either weaker than normal yourself, or had an exagerated perception of her strength.
Show a person who doesn't like a spider a spider, then take it away, and get them to describe it's size. You would be surprised at how fear exagerates threat level perceptions on a repeatable basis. Next time you plan on visiting a possession victim, take along a spring scale and get them to pull on the scale so you can get an actual measurement of how strong they really are, you might be surprised at the way an objective measurement lets your adrenaline influenced perceptions down.

Her voice was pure man,her face changed,nothing major.

None of that proves she was possessed.

His eyes were what convinced me

This shows how low your standard of evidence for spirit possession really is, were you claiming yourself as a skeptic above?

he ran to a tree punched it repeatedly untill the bones potruded from his hands,raced down the centre of the street and dropped dead on the spot.

I have seen a diabetic on a sugar imbalance punch into a wall and engage in other self harm activities, plus now we know that the fellow died after suffering an unknown quantity of blood loss, during intense exercise (and who is to say there wasn't a snake up that tree?).

Whilst we were wrestling he made s remark about my mother and the date she died, no one in the whole country new that.

No one in the whole country knew when your mother died??? I have my doubts about this alone, but assuming this to be true, this still leaves us with the following problems;

1. We don't know how he knew the date your mother died, he could have had a phone conversation with one of your relatives the day before he died for all we know.

2. We, as non-witnesses to the event have only your word that he even said that, and no offense but I personally have no knowledge of how accurate your recollection of the event is whatsoever, so even if this did happen, only first hand witnesses to the event can say with any certainty that it did happen, the rest of us have no way of knowing.

 

[nash8]

Ok,my mistake,most not all.

The woman was possessed by her father who was very upset, he wanted to know why she did not inform him she had gotten married, the monks bought his still living best friend down to calm him and explain he was dead.
Her strength was beyond retard strength.
Her voice was pure man,her face changed,nothing major.

The man however several years later was clean living,no drugs, he could not be contained by even a large group of us, I was bitten, I study jujitsu and muay Thai, this little man was savage, I am well verced in the understaing of using internal strength,he was beyond that.

His eyes were what convinced me, he ran to a tree punched it repeatedly untill the bones potruded from his hands,raced down the centre of the street and dropped dead on the spot.

Whilst we were wrestling he made s remark about my mother and the date she died, no one in the whole country new that.

It was the eyes that convinced me more.

It is said the eyes are window into ones soul.

Have seen ones at ajarn noo's temple, they believed they were but very obviously were not

What is ajarn noo's temple?

There won't necessarily need to be any physical effects, like drugs, present for extreme mental states. They can be tracked with a brain scanner to some extent. I'm obviously only presenting various possible outcomes and not claiming to know exactly what happened. Until there's been a scientific examination on something all there is are speculations.

I seem to recall a case where a man died due to his belief that he was possessed. He was scientifically and medicall monitored until he eventually died. The only possible scientific explenation was placebo effect - he simply believed he was possessed and he was going to die because of it. No medical reason other than that.

Severe cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder) have been known to manifest later in life as a result of early childhood trauma. Depending on the identity of the "alter" (some are not even human), they can appear quite like possession.

How would this not be "posession"?

A spirit possessing a body would have to bring it's own muscle fibres to have a strength greater than the inherent strength of the body allegedly possessed

In a sense yes, and in a sense no. Savant's hold the ability to make extremely complex mathematical calculations. It would follow that me an you have the same ability to do the same because are brains are essentially the same structurally.

While the Woman would have been physically capable of having the inherent strength, she would not be able to access it under normal conditions. But a spirit activating the adrenal glands, amongst others, would allow her to demonstrate a strength that she would be physicall capable of, but would not be able to demonstrate under other conditons.

that the woman had that strength is evidence that her body was physically capable of such strength.

But it does not demonstrate that she would be able to use this strenth under normal conditions.

Perhaps in your scared state you were either weaker than normal yourself, or had an exagerated perception of her strength.
Show a person who doesn't like a spider a spider, then take it away, and get them to describe it's size. You would be surprised at how fear exagerates threat level perceptions on a repeatable basis. Next time you plan on visiting a possession victim, take along a spring scale and get them to pull on the scale so you can get an actual measurement of how strong they really are, you might be surprised at the way an objective measurement lets your adrenaline influenced perceptions down.

Indeed.

None of that proves she was possessed.

What proves anything?

This shows how low your standard of evidence for spirit possession really is, were you claiming yourself as a skeptic above?

It seems to me that the standard of evidence was superhuman strength, personality changes, vocal changes, and knowledge of events that would be unlikely for this particular person to know.

I have seen a diabetic on a sugar imbalance punch into a wall and engage in other self harm activities, plus now we know that the fellow died after suffering an unknown quantity of blood loss, during intense exercise (and who is to say there wasn't a snake up that tree?).

Then you have evidence of what possibly happens when a diabetic has a sugar imbalance.

No one in the whole country knew when your mother died??? I have my doubts about this alone, but assuming this to be true, this still leaves us with the following problems;

1. We don't know how he knew the date your mother died, he could have had a phone conversation with one of your relatives the day before he died for all we know.

2. We, as non-witnesses to the event have only your word that he even said that, and no offense but I personally have no knowledge of how honest you are or how accurate your recollection of the event is whatsoever, so even if this did happen, only first hand witnesses to the event can say with any certainty that it did happen, the rest of us have no way of knowing.

Really? How many quantum physics experiments are you witness too, why do you take the word of scientists. How much personal knowledge do you have of how honest they are or how accurate your recollection of the events of the experiment that he conducted?

 

[Ablaze]

How do you explain him knowing things about me no one there new.

How do you know he didn't know them beforehand? Do you have full and complete knowledge of what others do and do not know?

 

[Ablaze]

Severe cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder) have been known to manifest later in life as a result of early childhood trauma. Depending on the identity of the "alter" (some are not even human), they can appear quite like possession.

How would this not be "posession"?

DID (MPD) is the manifestation of internally created alternate personalities, not possession by some external force.

 

[Cercatore]

I'm taking a class on spirit possession and exorcism, so I've been studying this stuff a lot recently.

I think if you were to go to many people in the modern western world, they would disavow a belief in spirit possession or exorcism. But I'm sure that of Christians questioned, many would claim they have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's a form of spirit possession, too.

Spirit possession plays a vital role in a lot of religions (Santo Daime, Vodou, other South-American African diaspora religions, etc) but the problem is that there isn't any unity among them. Most similarities are due to eclecticism.

If a spirit religion in, say, Japan and a spirit religion in South America both claimed to have contact with deity X, that might be a different story.

One could probably make an argument in support of the notion, but the non-supernatural explanations for spirit possession seem more compelling to me than the supernatural explanations (biological, psychological, communicative, socio-cultural, etc). It's interesting stuff, though.

I can't say that I believe spirit possessions are impossible, but I think that every possible explanation should be exhausted before the notion is considered.

 

[crossfire]

How do you explain him knowing things about me no one there new.

I had a dissociative experience during a very traumatic childbirth. (Strange experience.) After I "pulled myself back together" and the doctor got my son straightened out so I could give birth, I accurately told the attendants how much my son weighed and how long he measured as they were taking the measurements. Before the birth, but after the dissociative experience, I matter-of-factly told my husband that I'd trade him my lunch for the roll of peppermint lifesavers he had in one of his pockets that he didn't know were there.

I wouldn't call my dissociative experience a "spiritual possession," however.

 

[idav]

No, I don't believe it exists. Actually this ties to our other debate on the power of symbolism : notice how only those who believe in possession get possessed.

Brains are too complex and get thrown out of whack too easily. It is much easier to just imagine something is wrong with the persons mind, rather than spirits taking over the body.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm taking a class on spirit possession and exorcism, so I've been studying this stuff a lot recently.

I think if you were to go to many people in the modern western world, they would disavow a belief in spirit possession or exorcism. But I'm sure that of Christians questioned, many would claim they have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's a form of spirit possession, too.

I can't say that I believe spirit possessions are impossible, but I think that every possible explanation should be exhausted before the notion is considered.

I see this last quoted paragraph as the most essential part of your post.

When a person claims to be the recipient of the Holy Spirit, our 2 options are;
1. They are and will do many good works
Or
2. They are not, in which case they will usually claim something they say is true on the basis of the Holy Spirit, and if it is not true it can be thoroughly debunked.

By comparison we see how with spirit possession, in example 1(best case) the alleged spirit was able to be reasoned with, whilst in example 2(worst case) a person who may have easily been treated or prevented self harm by doctors was unable to be rescued by a whole bunch of believers and died, possibly needlessly.

So we see the harm that not sending in the meds first can potentially do.

I believe that even if it is not shared with us, for Payak's own benefit an autopsy report should endeavor to be obtained.

 

[payak]

The people in the village new nothing more then my name, pretty good trick to phone my home and find out my personal details when no one new my surname or home, and then fake a possession and then fall down dead, all to fool me.

 

[Cercatore]

The people in the village new nothing more then my name, pretty good trick to phone my home and find out my personal details when no one new my surname or home, and then fake a possession and then fall down dead, all to fool me.

Out of curiosity, do you know what religion the people in that village predominately practiced?

 

[YmirGF]

On 2 occasions I have witnessed this in remote villages,the last one convinced me it was absolutly real,both did in fact unfortunatly the last one died in front of us.

Has anyone else wittnessed such things.

To my thinking it is simply a case of projection on events that were misunderstood from the onset. Suspension of disbelief is a powerful elixir.

 

[payak]

To my thinking it is simply a case of projection on events that were misunderstood from the onset. Suspension of disbelief is a powerful elixir.

To your way of thinking or to your knowledge, describe to me in detail the events that took place in the village then explain why you think that.

 

[YmirGF]

To your way of thinking or to your knowledge, describe to me in detail the events that took place in the village then explain why you think that.

I think people misunderstand the power of imagination, suggestion and hysteria.

 

[payak]

So hysterical people with good imaginations can tell you things they could not possibly know,in a remote village that consists of people who also do not know.

Amazing this hysteria, maybe next time I buy s lotto ticket I will get hysterical,may just pick the numbers.

 

[nash8]

DID (MPD) is the manifestation of internally created alternate personalities, not possession by some external force.

How can one determine that these alternate personalities are internally created in every case?

I will definitely agree that there is very little if any evidence for conscious entities existing in a state other than physical form, but external electromagnetic forces causing serious brain dysfunction is well documented.

 

[rusra02]

On 2 occasions I have witnessed this in remote villages,the last one convinced me it was absolutly real,both did in fact unfortunatly the last one died in front of us.

Has anyone else wittnessed such things.

I believe The Bible clearly shows possession by wicked spirits is a sad reality. (Mark 5:2-5) These spirits were once faithful angels, but turned wicked as did Satan.(Jude 6) They are always harmful, even while pretending to be beneficent. (Acts 16:16-18, 2 Corinthians 11:14)