As long as there are no meditation-disturbing grizzlies around, of course.
Ciao
- ciole
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Spiritual Crisis?
- Thread starter Vincent Valentine
- Start date
-
- Tags
- spiritual crisis
As long as there are no meditation-disturbing grizzlies around, of course.
Ciao
- ciole
I'm really skeptical about NDEs. If I believed NDEs were anything more than a mega-hallucination by a brain trying to make sense of what the body is doing, I'd expect to see the form of God or afterlife that I believe in while awake. I think people see in their NDEs what they're conditioned to see. Someone who is raised Christian, with all the attendant beliefs in Heaven, Hell, demons, angels, saints, a fearsome God, etc. is going to see that. I wouldn't expect that person to experience Amitabha Buddha or Krishna. I wouldn't expect that a Hindu would see Jesus or a guardian angel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Cross-cultural_research
Note 115 Keith Augustine. (2008). "Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences". Internet Infidels. Retrieved 2014-06-03.
Btw, the "Golden Rule" is not unique to Christianity. Many religions (or no religion, i.e. atheists), have a similar concept, though it may be worded differently.
OceanSoul
Member
Oh ok. Harming none is a fine principle. I don't know if Hell is real or not. However, living a meaningful life and being a decent person does matter.
I have been going through a spiritual slump but not as long as you have though. I look at it like this: I will live my life the best I can, help reduce suffering, and cherish each breath I have...so if living according to my principles isn't enough to go to Heaven then so be it. :shrugs:
OceanSoul
Member
Haha good point. Here you have to watch out for snakes too. Of course, you don't always have to close your eyes to meditate per se.
Last edited:
In the DSM-IV, linked piece, the words "disenfranchised grief" makes sense to me with what spiritual crisis generally entails. I see it as holding a belief or religious faith, then coming to place where that is highly doubted or questioned and losing sense of any privileges that were previously identified as basis for living. Perhaps basis of (all or any) purpose.
As long as one is on a path for seeking greater understanding of (foremost) own self, humanity, universe, I think episodic crises are likely. Otherwise, I would think there would be not much growth in whatever understandings one currently holds. Kind of stuck in own belief system. Given the stability that likely comes with that, I'm sure that is perceived as a good thing.
Given the growth spurts I've experienced, I think it is good to experience a crises or ten. If a spurt is not offsetting, then it is probably not a crisis. I say all this, because I think there is a relatively fine line between crisis and growth in understanding, but is fairly noticeable by one's own determination of how at peace they are currently with life in general, and again (foremost) own self.
When I was way more into searching, I did find introducing myself and immersing my consciousness in other spiritual ideas to be helpful, for the disenfranchisement I experienced from moving away from religious beliefs I was raised in. For me that was rather mild (I think) because I don't recall having any strong sense of being religious/spiritual when I was younger. It was there, but it was mostly in background and not my purpose for living, or how I foremost self identified. Still, the idea of 'turning away from God' was known to me, in my own way, before I began searching. Part of that searching, for me, had to entail looking earnestly at atheism. For longest time, I settled on agnosticism.
I'm now more in a place where I still seek, but no longer earnestly search. This means I believe (strongly) that answers to most (spiritual/psychological) questions are found within. Yet, that can get troublesome or be offsetting if only seeking through own mind, and identifying (at any level) that other minds exist. Offsetting if thinking, experiencing, other minds as intruding on own path. (Far) easier to manage the offsetting experiences if perceiving those other minds to be in physical bodies, than if they are minds that are perceived as dis-embodied (i.e. all in your head). If going within means other minds (spirits) will intrude on the path, it can then be (easily) determined that the act of going within is, in and of itself, disconcerting.
I do think meditation/contemplation is most helpful advice I can offer to earnest seeker or searcher. The inability to sit still for say 15 minutes and seek within is I think representative of disconcerting experience. Easy to consider certain distractions as 'worldly' and write it off as such. Move on with normal, physical life and perhaps try again another day. I actually see it more in vein of intrusions, but more acutely as this is manifestation of where my mind is right now. When I've not meditated for awhile (by my own standards of awhile), I shoot for just 3 minutes of stillness. Sometimes, I can't even manage that without experiencing distractions, mind wandering, disconcertion. That used to really upset me. So, compounding the problem I was experiencing. But I've learned (after many years) to not beat myself up for how I choose to seek, and be happy/satisfied with where I'm at, and/or that I'm still willing to seek.
Meditation, I find, is like riding a bike. Might take a few weeks or say 10 sessions before I remember how utterly easy it is to sit back and enjoy the ride. Now, if I'm having trouble early on (read as distracted), I'll go for contemplation instead. Allowing my thoughts into the session to carefully, honestly look at something, some issue and be with it in a way that my normal 'on the go' self doesn't have time for, or doesn't care to slow down to the point of contemplation. In some ways, I do prefer contemplation over meditation. But because I've had very profound, deeply peaceful, or wonderful bouts of joy with meditation, I'll perhaps always have high appreciation for what that is, for me.
There has been a text/doctrine that has been very helpful to me. More than one. I'm now at point where I do realize all voices, really all things, are echoes of God, but during my searching days, that wouldn't have been readily accepted by me. My sense of 'self' was far smaller than it is now. Understanding that intrusions by what seems to be other minds, I think is 'perfectly normal' while searching. But I now understand that as manifestation of own mind. Sometimes, that takes me more than a few moments to realize it at that level, but inevitably I do see it that way. Until I see that, I identify it as disconcerting and at level of 'crisis.' Sometimes mild crisis, sometimes significant enough to make me feel life is no longer worth living. There are a few tools that I use that I'm not mentioning here for a few reasons, mostly because I feel they are unique to me. All of these tools are how you say 'psychological' meaning you can't go anywhere in the physical world and pick them up. They are all free, in my understanding.
I would just conclude with the idea that the question is being asked aloud as if others can help, will help, is very significant step while seeking. What answers this provides and how one makes that work for them is sign of where you truly are in relation to own (self manifested) crisis.
As long as one is on a path for seeking greater understanding of (foremost) own self, humanity, universe, I think episodic crises are likely. Otherwise, I would think there would be not much growth in whatever understandings one currently holds. Kind of stuck in own belief system. Given the stability that likely comes with that, I'm sure that is perceived as a good thing.
Given the growth spurts I've experienced, I think it is good to experience a crises or ten. If a spurt is not offsetting, then it is probably not a crisis. I say all this, because I think there is a relatively fine line between crisis and growth in understanding, but is fairly noticeable by one's own determination of how at peace they are currently with life in general, and again (foremost) own self.
When I was way more into searching, I did find introducing myself and immersing my consciousness in other spiritual ideas to be helpful, for the disenfranchisement I experienced from moving away from religious beliefs I was raised in. For me that was rather mild (I think) because I don't recall having any strong sense of being religious/spiritual when I was younger. It was there, but it was mostly in background and not my purpose for living, or how I foremost self identified. Still, the idea of 'turning away from God' was known to me, in my own way, before I began searching. Part of that searching, for me, had to entail looking earnestly at atheism. For longest time, I settled on agnosticism.
I'm now more in a place where I still seek, but no longer earnestly search. This means I believe (strongly) that answers to most (spiritual/psychological) questions are found within. Yet, that can get troublesome or be offsetting if only seeking through own mind, and identifying (at any level) that other minds exist. Offsetting if thinking, experiencing, other minds as intruding on own path. (Far) easier to manage the offsetting experiences if perceiving those other minds to be in physical bodies, than if they are minds that are perceived as dis-embodied (i.e. all in your head). If going within means other minds (spirits) will intrude on the path, it can then be (easily) determined that the act of going within is, in and of itself, disconcerting.
I do think meditation/contemplation is most helpful advice I can offer to earnest seeker or searcher. The inability to sit still for say 15 minutes and seek within is I think representative of disconcerting experience. Easy to consider certain distractions as 'worldly' and write it off as such. Move on with normal, physical life and perhaps try again another day. I actually see it more in vein of intrusions, but more acutely as this is manifestation of where my mind is right now. When I've not meditated for awhile (by my own standards of awhile), I shoot for just 3 minutes of stillness. Sometimes, I can't even manage that without experiencing distractions, mind wandering, disconcertion. That used to really upset me. So, compounding the problem I was experiencing. But I've learned (after many years) to not beat myself up for how I choose to seek, and be happy/satisfied with where I'm at, and/or that I'm still willing to seek.
Meditation, I find, is like riding a bike. Might take a few weeks or say 10 sessions before I remember how utterly easy it is to sit back and enjoy the ride. Now, if I'm having trouble early on (read as distracted), I'll go for contemplation instead. Allowing my thoughts into the session to carefully, honestly look at something, some issue and be with it in a way that my normal 'on the go' self doesn't have time for, or doesn't care to slow down to the point of contemplation. In some ways, I do prefer contemplation over meditation. But because I've had very profound, deeply peaceful, or wonderful bouts of joy with meditation, I'll perhaps always have high appreciation for what that is, for me.
There has been a text/doctrine that has been very helpful to me. More than one. I'm now at point where I do realize all voices, really all things, are echoes of God, but during my searching days, that wouldn't have been readily accepted by me. My sense of 'self' was far smaller than it is now. Understanding that intrusions by what seems to be other minds, I think is 'perfectly normal' while searching. But I now understand that as manifestation of own mind. Sometimes, that takes me more than a few moments to realize it at that level, but inevitably I do see it that way. Until I see that, I identify it as disconcerting and at level of 'crisis.' Sometimes mild crisis, sometimes significant enough to make me feel life is no longer worth living. There are a few tools that I use that I'm not mentioning here for a few reasons, mostly because I feel they are unique to me. All of these tools are how you say 'psychological' meaning you can't go anywhere in the physical world and pick them up. They are all free, in my understanding.
I would just conclude with the idea that the question is being asked aloud as if others can help, will help, is very significant step while seeking. What answers this provides and how one makes that work for them is sign of where you truly are in relation to own (self manifested) crisis.
And those annoying mosquitos. I tried to meditate them away, with mixed results.
Ciao
- viole
OceanSoul
Member
Ew yeah mosquitos are a pain in the side. I like nature, just not necessarily on me.
I usually use walking outside to practice mindfulness, it does help clear my mind. Meditation isn't easy for me.
Vincent Valentine
New Member
Interesting concept, but your point is invalid in most cases I saw. Because many of them were atheists and still saw hell and demons. Beliefs don't really matter, what exist, exists whether you believe in it or not. If demons exist it doesn't really matter what you believe, because they are still there. Same thing with angels. Things don't just magically go away because you refuse their existence, that's silly.
Vincent Valentine
New Member
Thank you for sharing and putting so much effort in your response. I think you helped me realize contemplation is the route for me to go. I love mulling things over and hearing different beliefs and theories. Thanks
Vincent Valentine
New Member
Removing human suffering, in my opinion, is the most important goal we should have as a collective. It's close to my heart, but the only way I'm aware of doing it is through sharing my story and pointing people in the right direction.
Even atheists are not shielded from the beliefs of the overculture. You don't have to believe in something, concepts embed themselves in the subconscious.
arthra
Baha'i
I was in a military training when in my late teens for about six months or so and basically when you're in such an environment you begin to learn that no matter what happens doesn't have to affect your soul... So while my body basically followed whatever dictates the groups followed my soul was in a different place.. by that I mean my soul was connected to a spiritual world. So even when hell was around you I had a connection with another place. So call it meditation or developing a stronger connection with the spiritual world there are ways to transcend what's going on around you.
Vincent Valentine
New Member
Thanks for the story. It sounds like it would be a mental survival mechanism, especially during combat. I can only imagine how traumatizing war would be.
ShadowFire
Member
Hi Vincent and welcome to the forum, well I'm a Christian Witch that is very Wicca friendly so I hope you can relate to the constant battles and very fine line I have to walk on a daily basis not to mention that since I sometimes deal with spiritual issues of the occult world and spiritual contacts separated from the Abrahamic God my life was in a constant spiritual turmoil!
The way I dealt with my problem is that I equated my spiritual problems the same way as if a powerful hurricane were coming towards me. Instead of fleeing from the Hurricane, I embraced it and now live in the eye of the storm where I have found my inner peace.
Problems will always be around you but if you can find your center so that you can have inner peace as you deal with the problems that are swirling around you there is nothing under Heaven that can stop you! Hope this helps my friend and have faith in the strong person you truly arre!
The way I dealt with my problem is that I equated my spiritual problems the same way as if a powerful hurricane were coming towards me. Instead of fleeing from the Hurricane, I embraced it and now live in the eye of the storm where I have found my inner peace.
Problems will always be around you but if you can find your center so that you can have inner peace as you deal with the problems that are swirling around you there is nothing under Heaven that can stop you! Hope this helps my friend and have faith in the strong person you truly arre!
arthra
Baha'i
One night we ( a platoon) were called upon to assault a hill .. frontal assault it was called. Mentally I recalled that such a maneuver might have been similar to the frontal assault on Bunker Hill but the orders when given. In a line going up the hill I stumbled into a fox hole and believe it or not did a complete summersault with my Browning Automatic Rifle in hand. For me it was a miracle...
Bird123
Well-Known Member
People can be very stubborn. sometimes it takes adversity to point them in a new direction. One can ask. What have I learned through it all?
There are a million lessons to learn around religion and none of them are about God. Religion's beliefs can alter a person's view of reality to the point one is living in Beliefs instead of true Reality. What one believes is often what one becomes. At some point, reality has to return regardless of the shock so that growth and learning can move one forward.
Sometimes hurt and pain makes one want to run and hide from everything. This move also is the path away from reality. It is important to face and overcome our adversities thereby growing then becoming strong.
Let's take you for example and see what reality really is. First, there is no one in the world exactly like you nor will there ever be. In my book that makes you Special. Next, everyone carries a different view which is important. God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. That means it is important to share that view with those around us. They need to see it. Failure to do this leaves others with missing pieces of the puzzle.
WE all have the power to Choose what we deem important. We can value the lower levels of hate, anger, judging, condemnation, blame and punishment OR we can choose the love, kindness, helpfulness, caring and fixing others. Which choice really brings the Happiness?
Contrary to popular belief, religion also teaches the lower levels to people. Is this really something people need to learn and believe? Religion uses Fear to gain followers. This is a lower level.
Logical deduction: A Being capable of creating the universe has to be Very Smart. Now, ask yourself. Is it smart to create a fiery pit to punish souls for eternity without the possibility of redemption? Is it smart to even value those petty lower levels at all. They only bring grief.
As for me, I strive to remain in those Higher levels as God must for it is the only real intelligent way.
Psychiatrists do not cure people. They just supply patients with information they do not have. If it is a physical defect, medicine steps in to help. Since psychiatrists do not know it all, there are some people they can not help. They too can seed people with their Beliefs when they do not know all the facts. I say take what helps but never assume they should make all the choices for a patient. I can see how some Spiritual crisis can throw a monkey wrench in their attempt to help.
Well, that is the way I see things. Your view might be different.
TruthEnder
Member
Perhaps this will be a good exercise of will for you to not focus so much energy on Christianity. You may have heard that the golden rule isn't exclusive to Christianity, but here are some of the instances like it quoted from other texts. The Golden Rule is free for the taking, don't think you have to have any sort of dedication to any religion in particular, or even any religion at all to use it. Personally, I like Rabbi Hillel's in the Jewish Talmud the best.
"What you don't want done to yourself, don't do to others." - Analects, Confucianism
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." - Imam Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths, Islam
"Do naught to other which if done to thee would cause thee pain." - Mahabharata, Hinduism
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." - New Testament, Christianity
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." - Pima proverbs, Native American Spirituality
"May I do to other as I would that they do unto me." - Plato, Philosophy
"Do not do unto others all that which is not well for oneself." - Shayast-na-Shayast, Zoroastrianism
"What is hateful to you; do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." - Talmud, Judaism
"That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another." -The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, Ancient Egyptians
"Hurt not others with what pains thyself." - Udana-Varga, Buddhism
TruthEnder
Member
Doubt can cause us even to reconsider the most evident assumptions that we have. That's only touching the surface.
Also, I'm not attacking you, just trying to help... but what would you think if I said I believe you have jumped to the conclusion that was reality based on mere appearance? As you put it, I have only the idea that you saw demons and angels. What makes you think they were real? You're filtering your thoughts on what happened, denying the evidence that maybe it was just a hallucination. You do have a diagnosis (nothing wrong with that, I myself have schizophrenia). What would be so dissatisfying to you if it was all a hallucination? From what I understand, you would rather be an atheist. What I am actually doing is helping you identify some unhelpful thinking styles that you are using. Heck, you probably don't use them every time you think about something... so it's probably special pleading in this one case as well.