Spiritual Enlightenment: what is it/what it is.

[Kirran]

So you say, therefore it must be true, eh?
As I like to say, sometimes: "Whatever you say, Jack."

Crowfeather, simply enough, are you happy to abide by all the RF rules?

 

[godnotgod]

And, with that, what's to say that the 'enlightened' state isn't just another, higher level dream state? And perhaps there is an inifinite tower of dream states? And that NONE of them is 'reality', but merely a dream state for the next higher one?

Have you ever had the experience of waking up twice in quick succession? So, you wake up from a dream and then wake up from *that* dream? You realize that both were just dreams at the same level, but that you were dreaming that you were dreaming. The first wasn't a lower level dream than the second. They were both simply dreams.

And what I would claim is that what you *think* is an enlightened state is actually just another type of dream state where you are *dreaming* the unity that you experience. It is an altered state of consciousness. And frankly, I speak from experience: I know the state you are speaking of and I realize it to be a dream.

Finally, you must have much more vivid and detailed dreams than I do. I *never* dream I am anyone other than myself, usually in rather typical situations. Sometimes the laws of physics are a bit distorted or a building has strange properties. But I don't dream of being anyone other than who I am.

Yes, a cascade of dreams is possible, one within another. However, the very fact of dreaming points to a real awakened state at some point. You cannot have all dream state without a corresponding awakened state, just as you cannot have night without day.

And yes, it is true that there are many who think/believe themselves to be enlightened (as Sheon did) only to eventually discover their delusion. But as I said, Enlightenment is not based upon thought or belief, and therefore cannot be mistaken for delusion. It is the cure for delusion.

 

[godnotgod]

I think, this was my point. People who consider themselves enlightened, are likely deluded. Just as I was.

You can think/believe yourself enlightened, but not be enlightened, or truly be enlightened, in which case you know it beyond a shadow of any doubt. The difference is huge.

 

[crowfeather]

Crowfeather, simply enough, are you happy to abide by all the RF rules?

Happy isn't the word I'd choose. Clearly, the rules don't work very well. They result in their being gamed by the devious, while remaining hopelessly restrictive to the non-devious.
In spite of this, I do my best, and my best is what you see. I lack deviousness, and so I am at a considerable disadvantage, on this and every other forum save my own.
There is but one reason I remain at all, since there is nobody here from whom I can learn anything useful, and that reason is user "godnotgod" who is a master in all respects, and has a quality I do not have.
Oh, and there's another reason too: you haven't banned me yet. Not quite yet. But very soon, I don't doubt.
Because, I have real values, real morals, real ethics, and a real life. And anybody who doesn't, simply can't abide that for very long.

 

[Kirran]

Happy isn't the word I'd choose. Clearly, the rules don't work very well. They result in their being gamed by the devious, while remaining hopelessly restrictive to the non-devious.
In spite of this, I do my best, and my best is what you see. I lack deviousness, and so I am at a considerable disadvantage, on this and every other forum save my own.
There is but one reason I remain at all, since there is nobody here from whom I can learn anything useful, and that reason is user "godnotgod" who is a master in all respects, and has a quality I do not have.
Oh, and there's another reason too: you haven't banned me yet. Not quite yet. But very soon, I don't doubt.
Because, I have real values, real morals, real ethics, and a real life. And anybody who doesn't, simply can't abide that for very long.

The rules are
1) Don't attack or insult members.
2) Don't argue in the open forum with moderation, do it in SF.
3) Don't troll or bully
4) Don't advertise or spam
5) No swearing or adult content
6) Don't advocate or discuss your involvement in stuff that's illegal
7) No plagiarism
8) No proselytising
9) Don't undermine RF's efforts to be a friendly and welcoming place where people can discuss, compare and debate religions
10) Leave DIRs to the appropriate people

These are quite reasonable, and aren't difficult to keep. You are either willing to do so or not.

For the record, I have a real life, and real values morals and ethics while we're at it. Somebody disagreeing with you does not mean they do not.

 

[godnotgod]

How in the world does that follow???? Each snowflake is made of water, so all snowflakes share a common property. But that doens't say that each snowflake is 'the entirety of what all snowflakes are'. In fact, quite the opposite.



Same objection as above. yes, we all have consciousness. But that in no way says we are all the same.

All snowflakes/humans appear to be unique and different, even separate, but all are composed of universal water/consciousness. Just as the water that is in the form of a snowflake is not the property of the snowflake, the consciousness you say we have is not the property of an ego called 'I', although the ego wants you to think that it is 'my' consciousness. The ego itself is made of consciousness, so that is impossible.

Think of it this way: A singular, Universal Consciousness is manifesting itself as the world, which includes you and I. It is The Formless, projecting itself as all the myriad forms of the Universe. These myriad forms are illusory; only That which manifests them is Reality. Why that is the case is the real question. And why man sees The Universe as he does is reflected in a cogent statement by the Hindu mystic, Vivekenanda:

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

BTW, sharing water is not a common property of snowflakes; it IS what snowflakes actually ARE. A tree is not made of wood; it IS wood.

 

[godnotgod]

Because, I have real values, real morals, real ethics, and a real life. And anybody who doesn't, simply can't abide that for very long.

"Man must remake himself within the eternity of his own body"
Unknown source

 

[crowfeather]

For the record, I have a real life, and real values morals and ethics while we're at it. Somebody disagreeing with you does not mean they do not.

For the record: 'swingin' dick' means - to me - 'swingin'': popular, trendy, hive-mind. 'dick': private investigator, subjecting everything to microscopic examination, using intellect and ego to assign to those things qualities that may or may not be there, in order to build a case for personal gain.
What did you think it meant?

 

[Kirran]

For the record: 'swingin' dick' means - to me - 'swingin'': popular, trendy, hive-mind. 'dick': private investigator, subjecting everything to microscopic examination, using intellect and ego to assign to those things qualities that may or may not be there, in order to build a case for personal gain.
What did you think it meant?

The term 'dick' has a pretty universally-recognised insulting meaning when applied to individuals. Regardless of how you meant it, you know that, being that you speak English and that the meanings of words exist by consensus.

 

[crowfeather]

"Man must remake himself within the eternity of his own body"
Unknown source

Remake himself into what he started out as, after discarding what he allowed himself to be made into by the billion egos.
No small feat.

 

[crowfeather]

The term 'dick' has a pretty universally-recognised insulting meaning when applied to individuals. Regardless of how you meant it, you know that, being that you speak English and that the meanings of words exist by consensus.

Indeed, and I do not contest that. However, I live among humans who specialize in making of language whatever they feel like making of it, with no respect accorded to the language, itself. Rarely do I indulge in this sacrilege, and when I do, it is for effect.
My rendering is no more, or less, valid than yours. Except that mine does not include baseness, being as how I am not base.

 

[Kirran]

Indeed, and I do not contest that. However, I live among humans who specialize in making of language whatever they feel like making of it, with no respect accorded to the language, itself. Rarely do I indulge in this sacrilege, and when I do, it is for effect.
My rendering is no more, or less, valid than yours. Except that mine does not include baseness, being as how I am not base.

Calling people dicks is an insult, no matter how much you talk about egos and your own elevated spiritual status.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

All snowflakes/humans appear to be unique and different, even separate, but all are composed of universal water/consciousness. Just as the water that is in the form of a snowflake is not the property of the snowflake, the consciousness you say we have is not the property of an ego called 'I', although the ego wants you to think that it is 'my' consciousness. The ego itself is made of consciousness, so that is impossible.

Think of it this way: A singular, Universal Consciousness is manifesting itself as the world, which includes you and I. It is The Formless, projecting itself as all the myriad forms of the Universe. These myriad forms are illusory; only That which manifests them is Reality. Why that is the case is the real question.

You seem to be suggesting that you and I and @Polymath257 and maybe my cat all share one mind/one conciousness.

Question: So which version is this?
1. God is everything, and therefore we are all part of God's conciousness.
2. We are all part of Pangea/Mother.
3. We are individuals, yet the Force flows between us and all things.
4. Other.

Question: What if I don't believe that? and more to the point....What if you're wrong?

 

[Kirran]

You seem to be suggesting that you and I and @Polymath257 and maybe my cat all share one mind/one conciousness.

One consciousness rather than one mind, and it's not so much sharing it, cos that implies that there are individuals who "have" this thing consciousness, when it's actually consciousness experiencing different people. And yeah, definitely your cat.

 

[pearl]

So, in the same way, I when asked who I am, I would give my name, my history, and some of the ideas that I like to think about. That is what would allow you to tell me from all the other people around.

There is nothing there that is unique to you.

 

[godnotgod]

You seem to be suggesting that you and I and @Polymath257 and maybe my cat all share one mind/one conciousness.

Question: So which version is this?
1. God is everything, and therefore we are all part of God's conciousness.
2. We are all part of Pangea/Mother.
3. We are individuals, yet the Force flows between us and all things.
4. Other.

Question: What if I don't believe that? and more to the point....What if you're wrong?

There are no 'parts'; you are Everything, and Everything is No-thing.

Underneath what you think of as 'Daemon Sophic' and 'Polymath', is the same universal consciousness, manifesting itself as 'Daemon Sophic' and 'Polymath', and everything else. It's just that your ego thinks IT is doing it.

Mind and Consciousness are not the same. Mind is a self-created principle, an illusion called 'I'.

How can you find all of this out? When all of the activities of Mind cease, you will just see, rather than think, what is. You will see things as they actually are, rather than how the mind thinks them to be. This is Enlightenment.

 

[YmirGF]

I have read through about seven pages thus far and would like to share my own experiences and opinions.

A few years ago, I had a profound spiritual experience. Everything changed for me and I believed myself to be enlightened. I carried on with this belief for a couple of years, firm in the knowledge that just as I would know if I had fallen into a lake of liquid hot lava and known it instantaneously, I knew I had experienced an all encompassing oneness and the realization of that mystery which is All That Is and God itself. For that moment in time my identity was not and I had all disappeared as 'I'.

In the couple of years that followed I was extremely devoted to my spiritual path as of such. I spent most of my time meditating, conversing with spiritual beings, and being totally immersed in my newfound understanding of life and of myself. But it didn't last. The deeper I went, the deeper I opened myself to the spiritual world, the more out of control I found myself. Finally I had gone so far deep down into the rabbit hole that I completely lost my sanity, became severely dissociated, and believed I was being haunted and possessed by demons.

You cannot imagine the levels of psychosis I went through. At this point I wasn't just having single experiences or visions of the spiritual realm, I was living it 24/7 to the point where I can compare it to drowning with no ability to come up for fresh air. That little sense of 'I' that I had left vanished completely and I lost myself entirely.

I eventually got medical help when my personality fragmented so badly that I regressed to a little child of the age of three years old, unable to handle anymore. My mum had to care for me. It was one of the worst experiences in my life. With the right medicine it took me over a year to recover from that, and to make sense of everything I had experienced and witness.

I finally realized as I got better that all the experiences I had had were at best contradictory and did not harmonize with each other. Including the experience from whence it all started where I believed I had become 'enlightened'. The biggest contradiction was when I was going through the stage where I thought I was possessed, I was 'out of body', in 'heaven' meeting Jesus who appeared to be God. This God was nothing like the experience I had of God during my supposed 'enlightenment'. They were completely at odds with each other. They couldn't have been more different.

In the end I had concluded that I was mentally sick, and that my experience of enlightenment as well as everything else were products of an incredibly complex yet deluded mind. I was hallucinating. Because there is just absolutely no way any of it was real.

Now I do not consider myself to be enlightened or spiritual or anything at all, and I am all the happier for it. My dangerous flirtation with the depths of my own unconscious mind was born out of a deep need and desire to escape from the physical world due to depression and other situations in my life that made things difficult for me. I basically fled into a fantasy world of my own making...

More than anything I accept that the human mind is incredibly incredibly vast, and complicated, and imperfect. I have since become atheistic, but I am glad all that nonsense of my past is behind me.

By the way I am forever damaged because of those experiences. The psychosis left me with incurable chronic fatigue syndrome, non epileptic attack disorder, and other physical issues. In this case I had changed my own neurology so greatly through following these delusions that my body was no longer able to cope, and I doubt it will ever recover.

Therefore whilst I do believe that are benefits to a simple non-theistic spiritual path, I think that religion/spirituality can also be very dangerous and harmful.

Sorry that I have written so much:

TLDR: I experienced enlightenment which made me psychotic and now I'm messed up for life.

@Sheon I just wanted to give a heartfelt thanks for your courageous post. I'm so happy you were able to pull back from the abyss. I'm sorry that your experience has left your permanently damaged. It is my hope that your life gets a little bit better every day now that you're back. Thanks again, for your important post in this strange thread of faux enlightenment.

BTW: I'm with you, I no longer believe in "Enlightenment" either... though I did find your post to be both enlightening and inspiring.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sure they are. Until, finally, under the relentless avalanche of disrespect, pointless argument, and evil intent, they become less so.
Evil knows only evil. Evil turns everything to evil. Everything is evil, for the evil.
Meanwhile, the master inhabits a realm in which the evil can never set foot.

There is no intrinsic evil in Hinduism (my version), so I have no idea what you're going on about. But again, each is entitled to his/her POV opinion, lol.

 

[YmirGF]

I do not want to get embroiled into the argument, I just wanted to share my own views. And now I do not believe in the phenomenon of enlightenment at all. I believe it to be delusion.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, a cascade of dreams is possible, one within another. However, the very fact of dreaming points to a real awakened state at some point. You cannot have all dream state without a corresponding awakened state, just as you cannot have night without day.

And yes, it is true that there are many who think/believe themselves to be enlightened (as Sheon did) only to eventually discover their delusion. But as I said, Enlightenment is not based upon thought or belief, and therefore cannot be mistaken for delusion. It is the cure for delusion.

And some people *still* think they are enlightened, even by that criterion, and yet are not. So, why should we believe that *you* are?