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Spiritualism vs. Materialism

What is your worldview?


  • Total voters
    29

Gambit

Well-Known Member
we're approaching territory in which I have even less idea than usual what I'm talking about but as far as I know, that's not really correct, at least according to how causality is defined physically. It's already the case that mechanical laws (quantum or classical) are time-symmetric, and the reference to "future" and "past" isn't really inherent in the models, but how we use them. The same use can apply to interpreting paths in phase space.

How are you defining causality? Does the MWI say that a "split" is not really taking place? If there is no past or future, then all possibilities of the "universal wave function" must be actualized right now and this world must be, in some very real sense, illusory.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
How? No idea, we have no clue about consciousness.

What I know is that this process of transfer between consciousness required some joules of energy to be carried out. Every thought that goes inside your head burns energy (try to be spiritual or in love without eating).

Does the spiritual require watts of power in order to be instantiated?

Ciao

- viole


I suppose we won't know that until consciousness is explained. I perceive thoughts. When I'm conscious and not perceiving thoughts, does that require the consumption of energy?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I did not argue. i was sarcastic. Can spiritulity be sarcastic?

Maybe it is time you define what you mean with spiritulity, so that we can avoid further confusion.

Ciao

- viole

Spiritualism seems pretty broad. Anything which is not covered or explained by materialism basically can fall under the category of spiritualism.

Since materialism seems unable to explain consciousness then consciousness is spiritual.
 
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Gambit

Well-Known Member
What makes you think that the chain of events that led your muscles to be flexed in order to raise your hand is fundamentally different than a rope pulled by a weight? Just because you are conscious and the rope isn't?

Yes, I believe sentient beings have the capacity for self-determinism - a belief that is support by my first-person experience.

That would beg the question that conscious processes are not reduceable to the laws of physics, like the rest.

It doesn't beg any question. Physics does not state that consciousness reduces to the laws of physics. Physics is the study of the physical, not the mental. Your confusing physics with psychology.

And since consciousness can be affected by the physical, as we have already seen, I think that that there are good reasons to believe that our intentions have the same ontological state as that little rope.

And we have very good evidence based on our first-person experience to believe that the mental influences the physical.
 
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lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
How are you defining causality? Does the MWI say that a "split" is not really taking place? If there is no past or future, then all possibilities of the "universal wave function" must be actualized right now and this world must be, in some very real sense, illusory.

it would probably be better if someone like @LegionOnomaMoi explained this, but I will give it a shot. You should take this with a suitably large grain of salt. I don't think I can do any justice to causality in QM, but I don't think it's strictly necessary to make the point I have in mind. If you look at the wikipedia page, it says:

"In modern physics, the notion of causality had to be clarified. The insights of the theory of special relativity confirmed the assumption of causality, but they made the meaning of the word "simultaneous" observer-dependent. Consequently, the relativistic principle of causality says that the cause must precede its effect according to all inertial observers. This is equivalent to the statement that the cause and its effect are separated by a timelike interval..."
The phrase "timelike interval" gets at the idea I have in mind. It has to do with how special relativity treats time as a dimension of a combined spacetime. In a sense, spacetime is also taken to be "real", and that means that time is sort of like space, even though we don't perceive it that way. It has to be so because of the relativistic effects of velocities close to the speed of light we observe. It is possible to conceive of this spacetime in a way analogous (it's not a perfect analogy) to how you would conceive of the phase space of QM. "Future" and "Past" indicate changes along that one particular dimension of the 4d spacetime. To the extent that classical physics is deterministic, the entirety of that space including what, from the perspective of a particular point in that spacetime is future, can be represented, and "future" and "past" are relative to a given point, indicating timelike intervals. Given the mathematical tendency to visualize functions in a spatial way, that's more or less already how it works.

MWI is analogous in that it treats the phase space of the deterministic wave function of the entirety of the universe in that way. It's just a much higher-dimension and much large space.

And so saying that MWI takes the phase space of QM to be real doesn't dissolve causality, it more or less understands it in a way that's analogous to relativistic mechanics already does.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
And so saying that MWI takes the phase space of QM to be real doesn't dissolve causality, it more or less understands it in a way that's analogous to relativistic mechanics already does.

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that causality is relative to the reference frame of the observer?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that causality is relative to the reference frame of the observer?

I think the wiki mentions that the definition of "simultaneous" with regard to the occurrence of two events has to be determined relative to a frame of reference. With regard to the part you quoted, I think the question might be a misunderstanding, but I'm at least moderately fuzzy. An effect is defined relative to a cause, and in order for B to be caused by A there must be a timelike interval between them, and the existence of a timelike interval between them is not, to the best of my knowledge, a question that is relative to the frame of reference of some arbitrary observer.

Note that this is with regard to special relativity, since I was trying to make only the limited point that thinking about MWI in terms of a real phase space (rather than as a newly created universe at each event) not implying a lack of causality in and of itself. Special relativity is somewhat straightforward with regard to causality, but there are problems in general relativity caused by curved spacetime and issues with locality that are problematic for causality in QM, and other issues. Most of which I only vaguely know about.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Information?

Materialism allows or accepts that information is non-physical?

The brain generates information which is non-physical.

I see don't see how this allows for consciousness.

Information is not conscious and matter is not conscious. Doesn't materialism generally see consciousness as an illusion?

Idealism sees everything else (other than consciousness) as illusion. Dualism tries to cover the existence of both idealism and materialism.

Apparently spiritualism covers idealism.
I don't see where 'information' came into it. What do you mean by that? Are you referring to information theory a la Claude Shannon?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
this comes down to a definition of existence doesn't it? I'm still not quite sure how you get from existence to concept and back to existence. This is a problem to do with the concept of ideology; intellectually, it's a bit of a nightmare to figure out as it kills so many concepts in it's wake. this is why the idealism/materialism problem is so important.
Fantastic mate!
Again, you hit the nail bang on the head. Yes, I would see 'existence', 'exists', 'real', 'material' as references to the physical. However clearly those arguing that the immaterial exists, is real, is material must not be.
But if they are not references to the physical, what are they?
If we agree that concepts exist, although they are non-physical - then what do we mean by 'exists'?
This has been my issue from the outset;
1. If spirit is 'real' and 'exists'.
2. And concepts are 'real' and 'exist'.
3. Whilst both are immaterial.
4. Then how do you distinguish between spirit, concept and the physical?
Materialism has an in-built assumption that the immaterial does not exist and is an illusion.
No, I keep pointing out that concepts are immaterial and exist within materialism.
dealing specifically with dialectical materialism (the Marxist variety), the argument would be that the immaterial is a product of ideology and that ideology contains illusions. religion would therefore be an illusion. This is not a view I wholly understand or subscribe to as I'm a heretic by Marxist standards. Marxism is an extreme form of materialism and quite dogmatic. Ultimately it's a form of pragmatic atheism based on practice, so your position probably stands so long as it is outside of Marxist Materialism.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
If consciousness is immaterial, then materialism does not hold true. It's that simple.
That doesn't make sense, no matter how many times you repeat it.
Products of the physical (in this case consciousness) are not necessarily physical.
That consciousness, the conceptual and abstracts are immaterial does not conflict at all with materialism.

Materialists can make a distinction between a soccer ball and the thought of one without that challenging materialism.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that causality is relative to the reference frame of the observer?

In the hope that one works, I will give two accounts on this below, and while they involve different ways in in which causality is relative they are akin (although one has pictures I've prepared from a previous explanation). I would recommend reading the second first, which is why I've put it after the first explanation (which, if read, should be read second).

Explanation 1: I'm going to simplify an account I have found has worked in the past (albeit with a different audience and more importantly with the immediacy of spoken dialogue). Also, because greater distances add drama, we're going to have to refer to spaceships, for which I apologize. Imagine you and a colleague are both sent in your respective spaceships, headed for different planets your are tasked to explore. However, for a long while you are both travelling in the same direction and parallel to one another (for the story's sake, this is because your are ensuring that you can properly synchronize your time measurement devices so that the company you work for will be able, from your reports, to know for any time t how you and your colleague's work was progressing).

The moment before you and your colleague are about to zoom off in different directions (to the left and right, respectively; heading off roughly as if you had both taken off from the same point and were now traveling along the trajectories sketched out by this shape: V). So you make your final time measurement synchronization and hit the hypersuperspeedy-drive button. The blasts from your engines as well as the angle make the hydrothermonuclear laser-protonic propulsion jets (don't worry, it's clean energy) make the jets hit at the point of intersection on the V shape of your trajectories. From that single spot their emerges a lightwave. As everybody knows, ydrothermonuclear laser-protonic jets that hit emit a supremely strong light signal, so strong that when you both reach your respective planets some few light years away, you both turn and see the light-wave emitted. To both of you, the light-wave appears spherical, centered around an origin.

Here's the problem. It's not centered around the same origin. That is, you both see the light-wave as having been produced (caused) at two different places that could be many thousands of miles apart.

The explanation for this effect of relativity is that, as simultaneity doesn't exist, there were two events (the moments when you saw the light-wave) that were simultaneous only with respect to your individual reference frames. That is, you both saw two different lights. How, though, is it possible for your rockets to have caused a single light-wave to propagate such that you end up seeing two different light-waves?


Explanation 2: This example is more familiar than one involving spaceships, and more directly related to causality. Plus, it involves the hapless victims of physicists everywhere: Alice and Bob.

Bob is standing parallel to train tracks but his direction of gaze is perpendicular to place above the tracks where a train-car carrying Alice will be passing shortly. At the moment the direction of his gaze is perpendicular to her, lightening strikes the front and back of her train-car:

full


The lightening creates sparks in the train, creating a light-wave propagating towards the front to the back and another doing the reverse:

full



NOTE: This is from Bob's perspective. He saw the lightening strike the front and rear of the train-car simultaneously and in the second picture he sees them moving as depicted. Alice does not.

Generally, velocity is additive (I can throw a 100mph fastball, I just need to do it from a speeding vehicle so that the velocity of the vehicle is added to my throw (in fact, I can drop a 100mph fastball if I'm traveling 100mph). This isn't true of light. So Bob, who is stationary relative to the train, sees the train traveling away from the rear light-wave and toward the front one, meeting at the same point. He thus concludes he was correct, and lightning struck the front and back at the same time:

full


For Alice, things are different:

full


Alice is traveling at rest with respect to the train-car, so the light-wave from the front reaches here before she is even aware of a second lightning bolt. For her, lightning struck the front of the train first, and then the rear. For Alice, this EVENT consisted of one lightning strike hitting the front and then moments later a second one hitting the back, and she concludes (correctly) that the light-wave she saw first was caused by lightning that struck first, and the second light-wave was caused by another and later lightning bolt. This "same" EVENT for Bob consists of two light-waves caused by lightning bolts hitting front and back at the same time, and thus for him this EVENT included the meeting of these light-waves and he correctly deduces that this is the result of simultaneous lightning bolt strikes.

Alice and Bob both correctly deduce a causal chain of effects during this EVENT. However, these two chains are different. Moreover, there is no possible way to reconcile them (no preferred reference frame whence we might say that one is "right" as opposed to the other; if it helps, recall that Bob isn't actually stationary at all, as the Earth isn't, and in fact absolute uniform motion doesn't exist).


Special relativity requires us to relinquish the notion of simultaneity, or the idea that there is ever any time "now" except as defined according to some reference frame. Classical causality simplistically reduces to the requirements of an interaction in some local region of space and time. That is, I might turn because a friend who is a hundred meters away yells my name, but I can't turn because of this yelling until the sound-wave locally interact with my eardrum. However, once you remove simultaneity it becomes impossible to determine the order of events except as they occur relative to some reference frame.

There is no way to say what "now" is, except from one's reference frame. As causes precede effects in the "classical" model, they require a linear progression: x causes y effect, y causes z effect, etc. However, this assumes we have some reason for saying that some cause preceded an effect, but as the order of events is relative to the observer this isn't necessarily true. Currently, at least as long as we don't get into general relativity, only particular causes and effects can be confused here. Because the speed of light provides (supposedly) a boundary on the speed information can travel, locally everything is bounded in what it can "cause" or what "effects" it can be influenced by via its light-cone. Globally, the "now" of you in a space-ship lightyears away from me might be described by coordinates that make us experience the same "now", but small movements in different directions can cause you to shift hundreds of years into the future relative to my "now" or hundreds of years into the past.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This interpretation appears to dispense with all causality.
Wolf, F. A., & Sheehan, D. P. (2011). Causality is inconsistent with quantum field theory. In AIP Conference Proceedings-American Institute of Physics (Vol. 1408).

That entire conference was on retrocausality.

Quantum mechanics, general relativity, and QFT/particle physics all present various challenges to causality. The simplest one to describe is entanglement. Somehow, the behavior of two systems space-like separated by arbitrary distances (a mile, a light-year, a billion light-years, etc.) is causally connected instantaneously. I say "connected" because it is not true that either system causes the behavior of the other, just that their behavior is not independent and there is no local way to explain the behavior (non-locality). General relativity invites closed timelike curves (CTCs), which allows a system to travel along a "curve" in spacetime and interact with itself (i.e., travel back in time). QFT is relativistic, which means we are no describing what are already things that can have multiple states or interact in "no-time"/instantaneously regardless of distance, and reformulating this via a model in which neither space nor time exist, but reality is a non-Euclidean 4-dimensional space (the 4D Minkowski space of special relativity). At this point it starts to become difficult to describe what can be said to be happening and to what in order to talk about causation.

Sticking, then, with QM, and given the fame of the delayed-choice thought experiment, its empirical realization provides an excellent example of one kind of problem with causality in quantum physics without getting into field theory, manifolds, and Minkowski space.

That "wave-particle duality" notion I despise so much for how misleading it is has had one use for me: explaining realizations of Wheeler's delayed-choice thought experiment. In these actual experiments, we can prepare the system, let it "run", stop the experiment, and then decide after it is over whether we want to see wave-like results or particle-like results. More simply, we can decide the outcome of the experiment after it is over.

Another big problem is indefiniteness. One major causal model is counterfactual. The reason Einstein was reported to sarcastically ask "is the moon still there when you don't look at it?" was due to this aspect of QM. Counterfactual definiteness holds that whether or not we look at the moon is irrelevant. We don't change any of its properties by looking or not looking. In QM, we do- fundamentally.

then all we are left with are correlations and observation with no causal explanation.
In at least one instance, that seems to be absolutely what we have. Correlations that are are "caused" without explanation and which, moreover, have been proven (granted realism) to have no possible "cause" in the sense that the behavior of A & B are not caused by C but by A & B, yet A doesn't cause B nor B cause A.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If we agree that concepts exist, although they are non-physical - then what do we mean by 'exists'?

I had to do some digging around to find an explanation, but this will probably be satisfactory for philosophical purposes. The most relevant are bold and italic.

“Consciousness is a product of the activity of the human brain, which is connected with the intricate complex of sensory organs. In essence, consciousness is a reflection of the material world. It is a manifold process that includes various types of mental activity, such as sensation, perception, conception, thought, feeling and will. Derangement of this functioning by illness, say, or alcohol, impairs the capacity for sound mental activity. Sleep is a partial, temporary inhibition of the activity of the cerebral cortex- thinking ceases and consciousness is obscured.


But from these correct materialist views it does not follow that thought is a substance secreted by the Brain. The nineteenth-century German bourgeois materialist Karl Vogt defined thought as a special substance secreted by the brain, just as our salivary glands secrete saliva or the liver bile. That was, a vulgar conception of the nature of thought. Mental activity, consciousness, thought, is a special property of matter, but not a special kind of matter.


On the Fundamental question of philosophy we counterpose consciousness and matter, spirit and nature. Matter is everything that exists independent and outside of our consciousness, and it is therefore a gross error to regard consciousness as part of matter. Lenin said: “To say that thought is material is to make a false step, a step towards confusing materialism and idealism.” And indeed, if thought is the same thing as matter, that removes all differences between matter and thinking; it makes them identical.


The Idealist opponents of Marxism persist in ascribing to it the view that consciousness is of a material nature. They do so in order to make it easier to “refute” Marxist philosophical materialism. It is a time-honoured device- first to ascribe some absurdity to your opponent and then to subject it to “annihilating” criticism.


Actually, this identification of consciousness and matter belongs not to dialectical, but to vulgar materialism. Marxist materialist philosophy has always combated this view, always drawn a distinction between consciousness- the reflection of the material world- and matter itself.


But this difference should not be exaggerated, not made into an absolute break. Such a break between consciousness and matter is characteristic of psychological parallelism, which maintains that thought, consciousness, are processes taking place parallel to, but independent of, material processes occurring in the brain. Science rejects that standpoint. It proves that human mental activity is only a special aspect of the vital activity of the organism, a special function of the brain.


Dialectical materialism rejects any breaks between consciousness and matter. For such a break would, in essence, signify a return to primitive, ignorant views of early human history, when all the phenomena of life were explained due to a soul that was supposed to enter the body and control it.


In solving the psychophysical problem, i.e. the problem of the relation between men’s mental activity and it’s organ, the brain (as a material organ, a physical body), one must see both the difference and connection between them. It is important to bear the difference in mind, because identifying consciousness with matter leads to a sheer absurdity. But neither should consciousness be separated from the brain, for consciousness is a function of the brain, i.e. of matter organised in a special way.”


[p.44-45, Fundamentals of Marxism-Leninism, ed. O. Kuusinen, 1961]

In other words, the confusion of thought as something material is considered an error in dialectical materialism (Marxist thought), but is an idea common amongst other forms of materialism. In doing so, however it leads to a conception of the soul and therefore spiritualism as defined by the OP. So the question of idealism and materialism remains essential for distinguishing between spiritualism and materialism in attempting to maintain consistently materialist.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I don't see where 'information' came into it. What do you mean by that? Are you referring to information theory a la Claude Shannon?

No, but I think I was wrong about that anyway.

Information, like the information get from looking at a computer screen. It is what your brain interprets. Information can be carried by anything, like light or radio wave. It takes intelligence to extract meaning from information though.

The brain provides information to the consciousness which is extracted from physical stimulus. Maybe a better term is meaning.

Is "meaning" physical?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yes, I believe sentient beings have the capacity for self-determinism - a belief that is support by my first-person experience.



It doesn't beg any question. Physics does not state that consciousness reduces to the laws of physics. Physics is the study of the physical, not the mental. Your confusing physics with psychology.



And we have very good evidence based on our first-person experience to believe that the mental influences the physical.

Ok, take any mental event that ever appeared in your mind. For instance, your decision to have dinner in town, or to study chinese, whatever.

What caused it?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Spiritualism seems pretty broad. Anything which is not covered or explained by materialism basically can fall under the category of spiritualism.

Since materialism seems unable to explain consciousness then consciousness is spiritual.

This is a non-sequitur.

Materialism seems unable, at the time of this post, to explain what dark matter is or whether it exists. Does that entail that the gravitational anomalies we observe (without assuming dark matter) are spiritual?

Ciao

- viole
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is a non-sequitur.

Materialism seems unable, at the time of this post, to explain what dark matter is or whether it exists. Does that entail that the gravitational anomalies we observe (without assuming dark matter) are spiritual?

Ciao

- viole

It is independent of what you are observing.
The ability to observe anything. The conscious experience of observing.

Idealists dismiss physically reality like materialists dismiss everything else. Idealist seem more in direct opposition to materialist philosophy. Idealism is covered by spiritualism.

Materialism and Idealism are both monist philosophies.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Ok, take any mental event that ever appeared in your mind. For instance, your decision to have dinner in town, or to study chinese, whatever.

What caused it?

Ciao

- viole

Consciousness.

"Consciousness is an active force or mechanism that can, among other things, control or cause change in the human energy field, as well as, potentially, the universal field. " Consciousness as an Active Force
 
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