Spiritualism vs. Materialism

[Bunyip]

"Dreamtime" is a spiritual belief, based on an animistic worldview.

Sure, but it does not conflict with materialism because the dreaming is not 'material'. That is the point - spiritualism and materialism are not incompatible - unless you insist that the immaterial is somehow material.

 

[Gambit]

Sure, but it does not conflict with materialism because the dreaming is not 'material'. That is the point - spiritualism and materialism are not incompatible - unless you insist that the immaterial is somehow material.

Animism is not compatible with the definition of materialism I provided in the OP of this thread. (This is my thread, not yours. So, we are using my definitions, not yours.)

 

[Bunyip]

Animism is not compatible with the definition of materialism I provided in the OP of this thread. (This is my thread, not yours. So, we are using my definitions, not yours.)

Sure, but the topic is not animism. Whether or not animism is spiritualism as you define it is a different topic. It is only incompatible because you have declared it so - you have no rationale so far.

 

[Laika]

It really doesn't make a difference whether a physical process generates consciousness. The question is whether consciousness is physical or not. If it is not, then materialism is not true. (The truth is that there are very few materialists who actually believe everything is material or physical.)

Consciousness may be physical. Ideas are not. The idea of god may have a physical source in the brain- but that does not mean that god physically exists.

You're making a straw man argument. Whether a particular concept accords with reality is not the issue. The issue is whether a concept as a concept is physical or nonphysical.

That is precisely the argument; for thousands of years people have believed in the existence of god as a physical being. Showing that it is an illusion that does not accord with reality is the central issue of materialism and atheism. Materialism eliminates the possibility that god can physically exist by saying god is a product of the mind and is an illusion and that religion is a 'false' conception of reality.

I think that you and George are making a very significant mistake in seeing materialism as some kind of worldview or belief. It isn't. Nobody is really a materialist in practice, or an idealist a spiritualist etc. These are just philosophical positions - ways to look at the world. I am not any kind of materialist really - it's just a philosophical approach, not a label you can attach to people.

Materialism is monistic and consequently a world view if it is applied with self-consistency to avoid philosophical dualism in which idealist and materialist ideas co-exist in the same ideology.

 

[Bunyip]

Consciousness may be physical. Ideas are not. The idea of god may have a physical source in the brain- but that does not mean that god physically exists.



That is precisely the argument; for thousands of years people have believed in the existence of god as a physical being. Showing that it is an illusion that does not accord with reality is the central issue of materialism and atheism. Materialism eliminates the possibility that god can physically exist by saying god is a product of the mind and is an illusion and that religion is a 'false' conception of reality.



Materialism is monistic and consequently a world view if it is applied with self-consistency to avoid philosophical dualism in which idealist and materialist ideas co-exist in the same ideology.

Sure, that is a reasonable position. I still do not see how materialism is incompatible with spiritualism as defined. Idealism, yes. But how is making a distinction between concepts and material dualism? Both exist in materialism. Why conflate the immaterial with the material? Believing that the physical AND products of the physical exist is not dualism.

 

[Laika]

Sure, that is a reasonable position. I still do not see how materialism is incompatible with spiritualism as defined. Idealism, yes. But how is making a distinction between concepts and material dualism?

hmm.. I'm scratching my head on this one as these are pretty subtle distinctions.

In philosophy, spiritualism is the notion, shared by a wide variety of systems of thought, that there is an immaterial reality that cannot be perceived by the senses.

I would guess that the reason is that materialism argues that knowledge of objective phenomena is based wholly on sense data and then turned into concepts. i.e. matter exists objectively of the mind, we receive sense-data and therefore develop concepts based on that sense data. Hence a concept which has no sense-data is potentially illusionary as a result of the danger of abstracting further and further away from our sense-data as our ideas become more complex.

 

[Bunyip]

hmm.. I'm scratching my head on this one as these are pretty subtle distinctions.

In philosophy, spiritualism is the notion, shared by a wide variety of systems of thought, that there is an immaterial reality that cannot be perceived by the senses.

I would guess that the reason is that materialism argues that knowledge of objective phenomena is based wholly on sense data and then turned into concepts. i.e. matter exists objectively of the mind, we receive sense-data and therefore develop concepts based on that sense data. Hence a concept which has no sense-data is potentially illusionary as a result of the danger of abstracting further and further away from our sense-data as our ideas become more complex.

i think you nailed it in the beginning - this is idealism vs materialism, chicken or the egg.
Which came first, or is primary is idealism vs materialism. What I am arguing is that materialism is not incompatible with spiritualism as defined in the op, because it does accept the existence of the immaterial, the conceptual.
I believe that you can have a rich spiritual life, without assigning to the spiritual some sort of material quality. And I sincerely believe that aboriginal dreaming does not depend upon it either.

 

[Laika]

i think you nailed it in the beginning - this is idealism vs materialism, chicken or the egg.
Which came first, or is primary is idealism vs materialism. What I am arguing is that materialism is not incompatible with spiritualism as defined in the op, because it does accept the existence of the immaterial, the conceptual.

this comes down to a definition of existence doesn't it? I'm still not quite sure how you get from existence to concept and back to existence. This is a problem to do with the concept of ideology; intellectually, it's a bit of a nightmare to figure out as it kills so many concepts in it's wake. this is why the idealism/materialism problem is so important.

Materialism has an in-built assumption that the immaterial does not exist and is an illusion. dealing specifically with dialectical materialism (the Marxist variety), the argument would be that the immaterial is a product of ideology and that ideology contains illusions. religion would therefore be an illusion. This is not a view I wholly understand or subscribe to as I'm a heretic by Marxist standards. Marxism is an extreme form of materialism and quite dogmatic. Ultimately it's a form of pragmatic atheism based on practice, so your position probably stands so long as it is outside of Marxist Materialism.

 

[Laika]

it's possible that the Marxist opposition to religion and therefore spiritualism was based on 'moral' reasons rather than the ability to falsify religious belief itself. Marxists are pretty awful at explaining why they believe what they believe in any detail as they say "practice is the criteria of truth" (edit: and are therefore under no obligation to go into any detail on these questions). They would call it "class interest", in so far as the 'illusions' of the supernatural gave a ruling class power to claim knowledge not possessed by ordinary people who live in a material realm; the "opium of the people" argument.
One of the reasons why Marxism is so heavy on materialism is because the claim that they can "know everything" means they can "plan everything" in a socialist economic system. In so far as spiritualism claims that something is unknowable it is not in the class interest of the workers in terms of their emancipation from a capitalist system and their ability to run a socialist one.

 

[Gambit]

Consciousness may be physical. Ideas are not.

Materialism holds that mental phenomena are physical. Ideas are mental phenomena. If you argue that there are some mental phenomena which are not physical (which you are arguing), then you are arguing for some type of dualism (not materialism). That you refuse to acknowledge this fact doesn't change it. To debate this any further with you is to give your argument a modicum of respect that it certainly does not deserve.

 

[Laika]

Materialism holds that mental phenomena are physical. Ideas are mental phenomena. If you argue that there are some mental phenomena which are not physical (which you are arguing), then you are arguing for some type of dualism (not materialism). That you refuse to acknowledge this fact doesn't change it. To debate this any further with you is to give your argument a modicum of respect that it certainly does not deserve.

Given that Bunyip and myself have come to heads on this exact same question, it should be clear that the nature of the distinctions are subtle, but it's implications in understanding whether materialism is inherently atheist are considerable. I am not sufficiently informed on the details to give you an accurate description of what materialism means to this level of precision, but have adequately done so to this point.
This is deep in the realm of philosophy and the comfortable certainty of facts has long gone, particularly as we are debating to what extent knowledge of god or spirit as an objective entity is compatible with materialism.

I have no need of your respect to wish to identify my shortcomings or to seek to correct them in the future.

 

[Nakosis]

My opinion, as a spiritualist, is that the astral body is an entity on the astral plane of nature composed of matter higher vibratory level and outside our familiar three-dimensions.


My personal belief is that Consciousness is all One. It experiences finite experience by incarnating finite vehicles physical, astral and higher.


I am not going to argue here that it is unreasonable, but I'm going to argue it is 'materialism' in the OP question. Everything is still a product of physical matter.

Perhaps then your view is,

"Monistic idealism holds that consciousness, not matter, is the ground of all being. It is monist because it holds that there is only one type of thing in the universe and idealist because it holds that one thing to be consciousness."

Spiritualism in this sense is more dealing with the supernatural?

 

[Nakosis]

No, not at all. The conceptual can still exist within materialism. Materialism does not exclude the abstract and conceptual.

Information?

Materialism allows or accepts that information is non-physical?

The brain generates information which is non-physical.

I see don't see how this allows for consciousness.

Information is not conscious and matter is not conscious. Doesn't materialism generally see consciousness as an illusion?

Idealism sees everything else (other than consciousness) as illusion. Dualism tries to cover the existence of both idealism and materialism.

Apparently spiritualism covers idealism.

 

[viole]

Definitions





Comment:

Generally speaking, I believe there are two fundamental worldviews: spiritualism or materialism. (The "spiritualism vs. materialism" debate is more fundamental than the "theism vs. atheism" debate.)

Question:

Do you have a spiritual worldview or a materialistic worldview?

My spiritual feelings are the ultimate product of brain's organization, level of hormones and other external stimulations.

How do I know? Simple, they can drastically change by assuming certain chemical substances or by being beaten on the head by a big hammer.

I can hardly imagine spirituality (whatever that is) being influenced by mundane things like Vodka. Do you?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Information?

The brain generates information which is non-physical.

What makes you think that information is not physical?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Gambit]

My spiritual feelings are the ultimate product of brain's organization, level of hormones and other external stimulations.

How do I know? Simple, they can drastically change by assuming certain chemical substances or by being beaten on the head by a big hammer.

I can hardly imagine spirituality (whatever that is) being influenced by mundane things like Vodka. Do you?

I have already explained to you why this doesn't prove anything. While it is true that the physical influences the mental, it is also true that the mental influences the physical.

 

[George-ananda]

Perhaps then your view is,

"Monistic idealism holds that consciousness, not matter, is the ground of all being. It is monist because it holds that there is only one type of thing in the universe and idealist because it holds that one thing to be consciousness."

That sounds right.

Spiritualism in this sense is more dealing with the supernatural?

Not just the supernatural but also belief that consciousness is primary puts on in the 'Spiritualism' umbrella of the OP. 'Materialists' believe consciousness is an emergent property of physical matter.

 

[Gambit]

What makes you think that information is not physical?

Because quantum information is actually nonphysical - nonphysical in the sense that it exists in a potential state known as a superposition.

 

[viole]

Because quantum information is actually nonphysical - nonphysical in the sense that it exists in a potential state known as a superposition.

Potential state?

If you observe a superposition of states, like in the double slit experiment, would you say that this superposition is potential?

What do you mean? It has the potential of being a superposition of states?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I have already explained to you why this doesn't prove anything. While it is true that the physical influences the mental, it is also true that the mental influences the physical.

Yea, my spirituality led me to type words on this Ipad.

Do you think that my words are ultimately moved by my spirituality, whatever that means?

Ciao

- viole