Spiritualism vs. Materialism

[Gambit]

Not that you have given a rationale for that conclusion. Materialism accepts the existence of the non -physical, cpncepts for example. The existence of concepts as nonphysical abstracts does not conflict with materialism - why would it?.

A materialist who argues that consciousness is nonphysical is simply a dualist masquerading as a materialist. (You either have the intellectual capacity to grasp that or you don't. Either way, there's nothing more to debate on this topic.)

 

[Bunyip]

A materialist who argues that consciousness is nonphysical is simply a dualist masquerading as a materialist. (You either have the intellectual capacity to grasp that or you don't. Either way, there's nothing more to debate on this topic.)

Yeah mate, you have covered the whole 'only idiots don't understand' it is a pretty pathetic evasion. Concepts exist within materialism, get over it. That is not dualism, the existence of concepts and such abstracts does not conflict with materialism in any way whatsoever.
Of course there is nothing more to talk about - you are stuck on a breathtakingly simple misconception.

 

[Bunyip]

Gambit

Sure buddy, people who can't see your Emperor's New Clothes are stupid. Whatever works for you buddy. Just don't be surprised if nobody takes you seriously.

 

[Gambit]

Consciousness is not measurable, and so not physical. This in no way means that materialism is true.

Agreed.

 

[Bunyip]

Agreed.

It doesn't mean materialism is false either, it is a moot point.

 

[George-ananda]

That is false George. No, that is also false. They are concepts. To the Australian aboriginals the spirit world is accessed whenever you dream - dreams are conceptual abstract George. They do not believe that the dreaming has a material existence outside of the dream. Yes and strangely assume so does everyone else. Yeah mate, you believe all sorts of things.

So do aborigines believe spirits have no reality beyond a concept?

 

[Bunyip]

So do aborigines believe spirits have no reality beyond a concept?

What makes you think they see the dreaming as needing some sort of material existence? What reality is there beyond the conceptual and the physical? Why would the dreaming need to be material?
The dreaming is distinct from the physical in that it is not material.
And to the Aboriginals 'spirit' comes from the land, it is the land, they are one with the land.
There is the material world and the dreaming, the dreaming need not be material - I'm still not even sure what you mean by that.

 

[George-ananda]

What makes you think they see the dreaming as needing some sort of material existence? What reality is there beyond the conceptual and the physical? Why would the dreaming need to be material?

I think they believe their concepts are more than fantasy. The spirits are real things.

 

[Bunyip]

I think they believe their concepts are more than fantasy. The spirits are real things.

Of course, I believe my concepts are more than fantasy also. So would materialism. And yes the spirits are real things to them - they are part of the dreaming, part of the land. Concepts exist, they are real.

The dreaming is the dreaming, the land is the land. One is conceptual, the other material. To assign a material existence to the conceptual seems to add nothing but confusion and semantic arguments that can never progress past semantics.

 

[George-ananda]

Of course, I believe my concepts are more than fantasy also. So would materialism.

No, materialism would call them fantasy concepts having no reality beyond the concept (similar to a field of unicorns). Just physical machinations in your brain.

 

[Bunyip]

No, materialism would call them fantasy concepts having no reality beyond the concept (similar to a field of unicorns). Just physical machinations in your brain.

No, not at all. Fantasies are a subset of concepts, but no - not all concepts are fantasies by any means. Having no reality beyond the concept? What on earth do you mean? The reality beyond the concept is the physical reality - how are you missing that?

 

[George-ananda]

No, not at all. Fantasies are a subset of concepts, but no - not all concepts are fantasies by any means. Having no reality beyond the concept? What on earth do you mean? The reality beyond the concept is the physical reality - how are you missing that?

So if the aborigines concepts are more than fantasy then they are 'spiritualists' per the OP question. A 'materialist' must say their concepts are nothing more than fantasy.

 

[Bunyip]

So if the aborigines concepts are more than fantasy then they are 'spiritualists' per the OP question. A 'materialist' must say their concepts are nothing more than fantasy.

You're ignoring my comments, you are wrong - fantasies are a subset of concepts, not all concepts are fantasies. How is that confusing you? Please tell me so I can clarify. Materialists do NOT think that all concepts are fantasies, that is false. Anger is hardly a fantasy, nor are triangles.

 

[George-ananda]

Anger is hardly a fantasy, nor are triangles.

These don't imply anything 'materialism' does not accept as they can be reduced to material action. 'Spirits' are something materialism does not accept.

 

[Gambit]

The Australian Aborigines (like most indigenous tribal peoples) adhere to what can properly be called "animism."

 

[Bunyip]

These don't imply anything 'materialism' does not accept as they can be reduced to material action. 'Spirits' are something materialism does not accept.

Spirits can be reduced to material actions also, they are part of the dreaming. People dream. I accept that spirits exist conceptually, but they are not physical, material. You seem to keep insisting that they are material. So of course I accept their existence as a materialist. The only difference between us seems to be that you insist the spiritual is material in some way, and I distinguish the material from the conceptual.
Why it confuses me is that it is you who reduces both to the material, but you seem to think that is what I am doing,- when I make a distinction between them.

 

[George-ananda]

The Australian Aborigines (like most indigenous tribal peoples) adhere to what can properly be called "animism."

Clearly a type of 'spiritualism'' in the OP question.

 

[Gambit]

Clearly a type of 'spiritualism'' in the OP question.

Agreed.

Australian Aboriginals believe that there are two forms of time. The first relates to the daily activity, and the second is an infinite spiritual belief called the "dreamtime".

(source: "Aboriginal Dreamtime" blog)

 

[Bunyip]

The dreamtime is not material, it is the dream, not the material. It only exists conceptually.

 

[Gambit]

The dreamtime is not material, it is the dream, not the material. It only exists conceptually.

"Dreamtime" is a spiritual belief, based on an animistic worldview.