Spontaneous Abortions: Murder?

[Green Gaia]

That's not what I meant. This is connected to our belief in the fall, which I'm sure you are familiar with.

Refresh me please because I'm not making the connection.

 

[Booko]

What about spontaneous abortions? These are not planned by any human, but by God. Is he not murdering those little babies, as it is the same thing?

Is God murdering someone if they slip in the bathtub and die? Get struck by lightning? Get pneumonia and die?

And why does it happen? What is God doing? Why is he doing it? Or is it not part of his plan?

The human perspective is very limited, so it is often difficult for us to see any hint of that. And it's a subject that doesn't lend itself to more objective forms of evidence either, which is problematic.


I think that's where the faith bit comes into the picture.

 

[Quiddity]

Refresh me please because I'm not making the connection.

Well here is the long version if you’re really interested.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm

Otherwise you can stick with this shorter cut out version here:

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."

<snip>

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul"

<snip>

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice.

 

[porkchop]

IF we cannot understand why (in theistic terms) miscarriages happen, then can we hope to understand enough to assert that God has a plan for us? Or, must we take this belief that God has a plan for us on faith?

Thanks to my wonderful husband for enlightening me as to why these kind of things happen, its so obvious (duh, to myself) because sin entered into the world, that is why things like miscarriages, death, etc happen.

 

[Green Gaia]

I don't understand how that explains miscarriages, Victor.

 

[porkchop]

Do we not call pregnancies a gift from God? (or some people do)

I don't think you can have it both ways; an omniscient deity and free will. But that's another discussion.

I would always say children are a gift from God, but we have the choice to become pregnant or not.

I am so sorry, Maize, for your loss. I have a child, and i cant possibly imagine what you have gone through, and how you have managed to cope with the loss. :hug:

 

[porkchop]

Hey, is Victor maybe on about how sin entered the world and thats why these things happen? I just briefly looked at his post. Maybe thats the point hes trying to make???

 

[Green Gaia]

I would always say children are a gift from God, but we have the choice to become pregnant or not.

We have a choice to have sex or not, pregnancy is another matter.

I am so sorry, Maize, for your loss. I have a child, and i cant possibly imagine what you have gone through, and how you have managed to cope with the loss. :hug:

Thank you. I am fine with it now. I have two wonderful children who are my life. It was something that happened. I can understand it in medical and scientific terms, but when people tried to tell me that it happened because that was God's will that I lose that child, that use to upset me a lot.

 

[porkchop]

We have a choice to have sex or not, pregnancy is another matter.

Thank you. I am fine with it now. I have two wonderful children who are my life. It was something that happened. I can understand it in medical and scientific terms, but when people tried to tell me that it happened because that was God's will that I lose that child, that use to upset me a lot.

I dont think it would be Gods will, as it was not His will for sin to enter into the world, but because He gave us free will, it did, and that is why we have so much pain in this world. I am glad you are ok and have two kids, they truly are a wonderful gift.

( off to bed now, goodnight!)

 

[Faint]

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."

<snip>

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul"

<snip>

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice.

Let me try to summarize: By this, God considers all of humankind a single entity. Because one piece of the whole (Adam) double-crossed God (crossed! haha) with the whole tree incident...the rest of the "body humankind" is being punished for this particular individual's sin. And one little part of the punishment is spontaneous abortion on selected women?

 

[Quiddity]

Let me try to summarize: By this, God considers all of humankind a single entity. Because one piece of the whole (Adam) double-crossed God (crossed! haha) with the whole tree incident...the rest of the "body humankind" is being punished for this particular individual's sin. And one little part of the punishment is spontaneous abortion on selected women?

I'll roll with that if by punished you mean:
As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin.

 

[Quiddity]

I don't understand how that explains miscarriages, Victor.

If the fall would have never occured, then miscarriages wouldn't either. The fall is the premise.

 

[Ulver]

Sin.... Free Will.... A God that is all knowing, all loving, all powerful and eternal.

Wow.... again another example of how screwed up western culture has been for centuries (in at least one way).

 

[Faint]

I'll roll with that if by punished you mean:
As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin.

Sure, why not...we can use that definition in this context.

So then:
1) We must assume that if God created these punishments (defined above) for original sin, spontaneous abortion is of his design and included in this list of ways to make humans miserable (or not exist at all).
2) Therefore, not only has God created spontaneous abortion, but he condones its continued existence in the body humankind due to Adam's little slip up.
3) God is therefore not opposed to the termination of an embryo or fetus at a gestation prior to 20 weeks, just as he is not opposed to human suffering (if he were opposed, he would not allow it to exist).
4) Thus, God wants some people to have abortions.

 

[Quiddity]

Sure, why not...we can use that definition in this context.

So then:
1) We must assume that if God created these punishments (defined above) for original sin, spontaneous abortion is of his design and included in this list of ways to make humans miserable (or not exist at all).
2) Therefore, not only has God created spontaneous abortion, but he condones its continued existence in the body humankind due to Adam's little slip up.
3) God is therefore not opposed to the termination of an embryo or fetus at a gestation prior to 20 weeks, just as he is not opposed to human suffering (if he were opposed, he would not allow it to exist).
4) Thus, God wants some people to have abortions.

I should have made my sarcasm more obvious. As I pointed out earlier that I do not believe God created evil. Unless we get this out of the way, you won't be able to help yourself but blame everything on God.

 

[Faint]

As I pointed out earlier that I do not believe God created evil. Unless we get this out of the way, you won't be able to help yourself but blame everything on God.

I must have missed that on this thread. No need to repeat yourself as it's a bit off-topic anyway, though I'm not sure how you can reconcile the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful, universe-creating superbeing not creating something as simple as evil (or the process/machinations which led to evil), or--having the power to do anything--not erasing evil's existence after some other agency tampered with His creation.

In other words, if God allows something, then he approves of it. Right?

 

[Quiddity]

I must have missed that on this thread. No need to repeat yourself as it's a bit off-topic anyway, though I'm not sure how you can reconcile the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful, universe-creating superbeing not creating something as simple as evil (or the process/machinations which led to evil), or--having the power to do anything--not erasing evil's existence after some other agency tampered with His creation.

In other words, if God allows something, then he approves of it. Right?

Nope....but that sounds like a good thread.

 

[Green Gaia]

If the fall would have never occured, then miscarriages wouldn't either. The fall is the premise.

I see - I don't agree with it - but I see what you're saying.

 

[Faint]

Nope....but that sounds like a good thread.

Aye, it does.

 

[Quiddity]

I see - I don't agree with it - but I see what you're saying.

You don't agree with what? Did you mean you don't believe in the fall?