Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)

[Flankerl]

Haha what a cute backpaddling!

I didn't explain myself well, because I was in a hurry. It is obvious, that the countries of Europe had a habit of overrunning one another. My focus, however, is not on Europe but on the world

Which is why you put so much importance on the 10 nations in western europe. Doesnt make sense? Of course not.

 

[RabbiO]

Rabbi, I'm frankly not interested in this gnit-picking.....

I wasn't nit-picking and you're mistaken if you believe that to be the case. You're the one who wrote, "The list above is my best effort so far, and may be flawed." I thought I was being helpful by pointing out some flaws that would enable you to fine tune your list if you so chose.

I don't apologize for my post, but I am sorry if you took offense - which apparently you did based on the tenor of your response and the fact that you felt the need to excoriate me again in your response to Flankerl.

Peter

 

[Pegg]

I throw up my hands in this whole exercise. What you all (except Pegg) are saying, is that Daniel 2 has no discernible relevance to our lives.

Concerning the ten toes/ ten horns, Let me just post this fact of history, and draw whatever conclusions you wish. In the period between the independence of Belgium and the beginning of American involvement in WWII, roughly 1830-1941, some 110 years, there have been only 16 countries that have remained independent all that time:

1. Germany
2. Austria
3. Italy
4. Britain
5. France
6. Spain
7. Portugal
8. Belgium
9. Netherlands
10. Sweden
11. The U.S. of America
12. Russia
13. Ottoman Turkey
14. Japan
15. China
16. Thailand

TEN of them are in Western Europe, use the Roman Alphabet and have other attributes of the Roman Empire. Three of those ten (Germany, Austria, Italy) were "plucked up by the roots" by the US and allies in WWII. To anyone who sees the "ten horns" as part of an entitiy that exists in the "last days", before the coming of the Messianic Kingdom, these are the "ten horns" simply because THERE ARE NO OTHER CANDIDATES -- they were all vassals, in recent history, to the "horn" countries.

I have never heard any two people give a common, coherent explanation other than this.

The list above is my best effort so far, and may be flawed. I'm still trying to work with the fact that many Spanish, Portugese and French (Haiti) possessions became independent in the early 1800s. If we push the dates back to include them with the mother countries, Belgium gets lopped off the list. If we eliminate Belgium, though, the DR Congo comes out as one of the "great survivors" -- a rather absurd notion. The point is, that there are not many countries to choose from as the "ten".

May I just offer you another way of looking at this?

You are trying to name 10 specific nations because the bible says 'ten horns'....but couldnt the 10 simply signifies 'completeness' encompassing 'all' the nations on earth.

When you consider that the feet of the image is crushed and shattered in its entirety, then perhaps its the 'entire' number of world nations who are going to be shattered.

Why would God leave some vestiges of human rulership on earth while making the determination to establish his own? One rulership would require that all other rulerships are abolished and I think this is good reason to seriously consider that the 10 toes of the feet are 'all' the nations of earth.

 

[metis]

Some scholars believe that the horns stand for early empires, such as the Neo-Babylonians, Medan, Persian, and Greek whereas there were variables of these that lead to 10. To me, this seems like a more logical approach than trying to attach them to today's countries because the scriptures would have to make sense at the time they were written.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

..,Which is why you put so much importance on the 10 nations in western europe. Doesnt make sense? Of course not.

...not to you, but there's a reason for that.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I wasn't nit-picking and you're mistaken if you believe that to be the case. You're the one who wrote, "The list above is my best effort so far, and may be flawed." I thought I was being helpful by pointing out some flaws that would enable you to fine tune your list if you so chose.

I don't apologize for my post, but I am sorry if you took offense - which apparently you did based on the tenor of your response and the fact that you felt the need to excoriate me again in your response to Flankerl.

Peter

Thank you, rabbi.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

May I just offer you another way of looking at this?

You are trying to name 10 specific nations because the bible says 'ten horns'....but couldnt the 10 simply signifies 'completeness' encompassing 'all' the nations on earth.

When you consider that the feet of the image is crushed and shattered in its entirety, then perhaps its the 'entire' number of world nations who are going to be shattered.

Why would God leave some vestiges of human rulership on earth while making the determination to establish his own? One rulership would require that all other rulerships are abolished and I think this is good reason to seriously consider that the 10 toes of the feet are 'all' the nations of earth.

Pegg, you're a breath of fresh air. Of course, there is an underlying message in the numbers, and I dare say you have gotten it. The mechanics of trying to assign countries to the toes/horns is thiss:

1. Obviously, a major point of this prophecy is to help the brethren keep faith in God, during times when it is sorely tested. For this reason, it is important for us to know to whom and when these troubles will come, so we can be prepared.
2. The proper way to interpret prophecies, is to use the same methods used to interpret parallel prophecies. In Daniel 8, the metaphor of "horns" arises in a way analogous to the way it is used in Daniel 7; only in 8 it concerns the Hellenistic kingdoms, whereas in 7 it concerns the Roman-derived West European nations and their descendants.
3. Yes, the number "10" represents "completeness", in the sense that it is a token of a much larger value. The "Ten Commandments", for instance, are a token of a multitude of commandments, all conveying the larger message that we ought to love God and therefore love one another.
4. In listing the countries as I did, I was demonstrating that in the Colonial period, extending from around 1750 to around 1950, there were indeed only a handful of countries, numbering about ten, which collectively controlled the world. That dates the time of application of this part of the prophecy. The hallmark of this period, is that these nations worked in concert with one another; and of course, that the entire world was involved: Even gigantic China was not immune to the collective dictate, as the Boxer Rebellion showed. Africa was divided up like a pie; and South Asia was completely under the thumb of the British. The Western Hemisphere, meanwhile, consisted mainly of daughter states of the "Big Ten". Those 200 years were a unique historical moment. It is important for us to understand that those 200 years are indeed in the PAST, and that we are in a later era.
5. Specifically, we are in the era of the "little horn, which grew up among the ten but was different from them." The United States fits that description well. As a further point of identity, we were the principal force involved in uprooting the Third Reich, Fascist Italy and their minions. There might be some question of specifically which were the "three horns"; but the important fact is that this occurred with WWII: That is important to know, because of its timing. (As an aside, WWII broke out because so much unfinished business was left after WWI -- There was no "uprooting" of the Central Powers then).
6. The post-WWII era has some characteristics that identify it with the scriptures, as had the Colonial Era before then. Most of these are in Revelation, rather than Daniel, so I won't dwell on them in this thread. From a purely historical perspective, the US, which didn't exist at the beginning of the period of colonial dominance, has arisen to become the world's only superpower. Under its sway are various allies, such as the Korean Rep. and Japan but mainly the collective security arrangement called NATO. This period is also marked by the re-emergence of Israel. The stage is therefore set, for the emergence of a horn which will be "boasting blasphemies" right up to the end. If some may have trouble identifying the US with that boaster, perhaps there is an Arab or Iranian somewhere that can set right this deficiency.

As a collectivity, the idol of Daniel 2 and the beasts of Daniel 7 do indeed represent earthly authority that vaunts itself above God's authority. Even so, most people consider such authority to be a "neutral" thing, a tool that can be used for good and evil alike. This is true. When people begin to TRUST IN these structures, though, MORE THAN God, the result is pure evil of the greatest kind. That is why God criticized Israel for wanting a king, why David was punished for numbering Israel, and why Hezekiah had to have the Seraph destroyed when the people began burning incense to it.

Thank you for your insightful remarks, which, as I said before, are most refreshing.

PS. In the Zechariah 14 attack on Israel, "all the nations of the world" are indeed involved, more than just ten. If the events of the past 20 years have taught us anything, though, we can see how this attack will happen: It will be in the name of the UN, spearheaded by NATO and "Partnership" allies, and led by the President of the United States (a la Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, yada yada). By the way, I would not be at all surprised, if Russia is part of NATO by then. They already are a NATO "Partner for Peace". The Ezekiel 38-39 attack will happen BEFORE this; but we are not discussing that here.

 

[idea]

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Some scholars believe that the horns stand for early empires, such as the Neo-Babylonians, Medan, Persian, and Greek whereas there were variables of these that lead to 10. To me, this seems like a more logical approach than trying to attach them to today's countries because the scriptures would have to make sense at the time they were written.

Of course we are discussing Daniel 2, which refers to a statue with 10 TOES, not horns; but I will waive that distinction because most of us have already likened the 10 toes of Daniel 2 to the ten horns of Daniel 7.

Notice that the toes are iron and clay, an extension of the iron legs that many liken to the Roman Empire. Those iron legs are in ADDITION to the gold, brass and silver that most liken to Neo-Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Hellenistic Greek world. In Daniel 7, this analogy is repeated: The lion, bear and leopard represent the three Middle Eastern empires, in turn; and the fourth, very different beast, is the one that had the ten horns. That is why I don't believe Babylon, Persia and Greece should be counted among the ten.

The scriptures had to "make sense" at the time they were written, only in that the language had to be understandable at that time. In Daniel's day, Babylon was the unmistakeable center of the known world. The Medes and Persians were waiting in the wings; but they were a pretty barbaric lot. Egypt was past her time of glory, and was conquered by Babylon before Daniel died. Greece, in decline from its Golden Age that fluorished mainly in the Ionian cities of Asia Minor, was a mess of squabbling city-states. The main rival of Babylon at the time was Lydia, ruled by the House of Gog. The King of Lydia was Croesus, to whom the saying "rich as Croesus" applied. He came to rule over all of Ionia, and to dominate the Greeks. Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, in central Anatolia, were his vassals. The "statue" prophecy, therefore, which prophesied a succession by Persia, then Greece, would have seemed a bit odd when it was given, though, as you say, the hearers did understand most of the ELEMENTS of it.

Concerning the identity of the fourth, horrible beast, this could not possibly have been guessed at around 570 BCE. Rome was ruled by the Etruscans at the time, and the dominant power in the western Mediterranean (the "Sea of Tarshish") was Carthage. Rome itself was a complete mystery to Nebuchadnezzar, much more so the ten ANYTHING (kings, countries, who knows?) that were to arise from it at a later time.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hello, Idea. The statue is a good mnemonic device, and the labeling you give is indeed the way it has conventionally been interpreted in circles I'm familiar with. As Metis has pointed out, though, these interpretations are not universally held. Many scholars thought the toes represented individual emperors, rather than successor countries; and the figure of the statue could easily suggest this. One Internet colleague of mine thought they represented the Julian emperors, culminating around the time of the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. My biggest problem with that understanding, is that the Messianic Kingdom did not issue forth at that time; instead, a real MESS issued forth, the beginning of the 1900-year Holocaust that culminated in Hitler.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, you're a breath of fresh air. Of course, there is an underlying message in the numbers, and I dare say you have gotten it. The mechanics of trying to assign countries to the toes/horns is thiss:

1. Obviously, a major point of this prophecy is to help the brethren keep faith in God, during times when it is sorely tested. For this reason, it is important for us to know to whom and when these troubles will come, so we can be prepared.
2. The proper way to interpret prophecies, is to use the same methods used to interpret parallel prophecies. In Daniel 8, the metaphor of "horns" arises in a way analogous to the way it is used in Daniel 7; only in 8 it concerns the Hellenistic kingdoms, whereas in 7 it concerns the Roman-derived West European nations and their descendants.
3. Yes, the number "10" represents "completeness", in the sense that it is a token of a much larger value. The "Ten Commandments", for instance, are a token of a multitude of commandments, all conveying the larger message that we ought to love God and therefore love one another.
4. In listing the countries as I did, I was demonstrating that in the Colonial period, extending from around 1750 to around 1950, there were indeed only a handful of countries, numbering about ten, which collectively controlled the world. That dates the time of application of this part of the prophecy. The hallmark of this period, is that these nations worked in concert with one another; and of course, that the entire world was involved: Even gigantic China was not immune to the collective dictate, as the Boxer Rebellion showed. Africa was divided up like a pie; and South Asia was completely under the thumb of the British. The Western Hemisphere, meanwhile, consisted mainly of daughter states of the "Big Ten". Those 200 years were a unique historical moment. It is important for us to understand that those 200 years are indeed in the PAST, and that we are in a later era.
5. Specifically, we are in the era of the "little horn, which grew up among the ten but was different from them." The United States fits that description well. As a further point of identity, we were the principal force involved in uprooting the Third Reich, Fascist Italy and their minions. There might be some question of specifically which were the "three horns"; but the important fact is that this occurred with WWII: That is important to know, because of its timing. (As an aside, WWII broke out because so much unfinished business was left after WWI -- There was no "uprooting" of the Central Powers then).
6. The post-WWII era has some characteristics that identify it with the scriptures, as had the Colonial Era before then. Most of these are in Revelation, rather than Daniel, so I won't dwell on them in this thread. From a purely historical perspective, the US, which didn't exist at the beginning of the period of colonial dominance, has arisen to become the world's only superpower. Under its sway are various allies, such as the Korean Rep. and Japan but mainly the collective security arrangement called NATO. This period is also marked by the re-emergence of Israel. The stage is therefore set, for the emergence of a horn which will be "boasting blasphemies" right up to the end. If some may have trouble identifying the US with that boaster, perhaps there is an Arab or Iranian somewhere that can set right this deficiency.

As a collectivity, the idol of Daniel 2 and the beasts of Daniel 7 do indeed represent earthly authority that vaunts itself above God's authority. Even so, most people consider such authority to be a "neutral" thing, a tool that can be used for good and evil alike. This is true. When people begin to TRUST IN these structures, though, MORE THAN God, the result is pure evil of the greatest kind. That is why God criticized Israel for wanting a king, why David was punished for numbering Israel, and why Hezekiah had to have the Seraph destroyed when the people began burning incense to it.

Thank you for your insightful remarks, which, as I said before, are most refreshing.

PS. In the Zechariah 14 attack on Israel, "all the nations of the world" are indeed involved, more than just ten. If the events of the past 20 years have taught us anything, though, we can see how this attack will happen: It will be in the name of the UN, spearheaded by NATO and "Partnership" allies, and led by the President of the United States (a la Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, yada yada). By the way, I would not be at all surprised, if Russia is part of NATO by then. They already are a NATO "Partner for Peace". The Ezekiel 38-39 attack will happen BEFORE this; but we are not discussing that here.

ah i must have misunderstood you....i thought you were trying to figure out which nations are represented by the 10 toes.

But i totally agree with you. We've been teaching that the UN will lead the attack on Gods people for many years now.

 

[idea]

Hello, Idea. The statue is a good mnemonic device, and the labeling you give is indeed the way it has conventionally been interpreted in circles I'm familiar with. As Metis has pointed out, though, these interpretations are not universally held. Many scholars thought the toes represented individual emperors, rather than successor countries; and the figure of the statue could easily suggest this. One Internet colleague of mine thought they represented the Julian emperors, culminating around the time of the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. My biggest problem with that understanding, is that the Messianic Kingdom did not issue forth at that time; instead, a real MESS issued forth, the beginning of the 1900-year Holocaust that culminated in Hitler.

line upon line, layer upon layer... I suppose everything could have more than one meaning.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

line upon line, layer upon layer... I suppose everything could have more than one meaning.

Everything could SEEM like that, but there's only one truth.

Some things are sealed up for a time, because they are for such a distant time, nobody is able to make sense of them. During the days Talmud was written, Constantinople had not fallen yet and nobody had ever heard of America. In these last days, though, we should understand.

Daniel 2
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Has God set up that eternal kingdom yet? If not, then those clay toes are still with us. The Jews certainly don't believe it has come yet; and Christians pray:

"Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

The Jews have a similar prayer, the "Amidah".

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The Roman Empire though was crap, after Augustus things went down hill pretty much. If anything the feet of Iron represents the Roman Empire and the previous one would be the Roman Republic. Because from the Republic came the Empire

 

[BlandOatmeal]

ah i must have misunderstood you....i thought you were trying to figure out which nations are represented by the 10 toes.

But i totally agree with you. We've been teaching that the UN will lead the attack on Gods people for many years now.

Hi, Pegg

I actually was trying to figure out those ten nations, and have been for years. Some of them are easy -- Britain and France, for instance: They must be the little piggies that went to market. But are Germany and Austria the ones who stayed home? Can't be too sure about that. Did Russia have roast beef? The further you get through the little piggies, the tougher it gets.

As for the "UN" thing, I said that with a real definiteness, but who can tell? I just said that this has been the way we've ganged up on little nations over the past 20 years -- sometimes with UN consent, or Arab League consent; sometimes with a "coalition of the willing" -- but always, it seems with America in the lead. That ought to give Christians in this country, who are generally a patriotic lot, to give pause and consider. When America attacks Israel, our sons and daughters, nieces, nephews, grandchildren... some of them will be in the military. What then? Ditto, for all the other countries who will take part, and to those who consented but sat back to let others do the dirty work. That is why I'm concerned about these prophecies: They're not just nerdy exercises; the lives of our loved ones are likely to be affected by them. I am secure, that God will care for me and mine; but what about the others? Terrible times are coming, probably soon.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

The Roman Empire though was crap, after Augustus things went down hill pretty much. If anything the feet of Iron represents the Roman Empire and the previous one would be the Roman Republic. Because from the Republic came the Empire

Actually, the "Golden Age of Rome" is described by some as the mid-Second Century; though former Latin students like me know the real Golden Age died with Cicero and Cato. The whole "Golden Age" thing was also borrowed by the Greeks -- at a time well after the "Golden Age", of course; because things usually appear much more golden in retrospect than they did while people were living through them.

As I said a few posts ago, the art of building with concrete, as epitomized by the Panthenon, was lost around the time of Alaric's sack of Rome and not revived until re-discovered over 1300 years later.

The problem that I see with your interpretation, is that the Empire has been gone for hundreds of years, and the Messianic Kingdom hasn't come (like the great rock) and crushed all those great empires into powder. We still have "Classical Revival" all around us:

​

Those don't seem, to me, to be the symbols of a truly new Messianic (not "Secular") Order. The ten toes that were shattered by the Messianic stone, therefore, have not been broken yet.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Actually, the "Golden Age of Rome" is described by some as the mid-Second Century; though former Latin students like me know the real Golden Age died with Cicero and Cato. The whole "Golden Age" thing was also borrowed by the Greeks -- at a time well after the "Golden Age", of course; because things usually appear much more golden in retrospect than they did while people were living through them.

As I said a few posts ago, the art of building with concrete, as epitomized by the Panthenon, was lost around the time of Alaric's sack of Rome and not revived until re-discovered over 1300 years later.

The problem that I see with your interpretation, is that the Empire has been gone for hundreds of years, and the Messianic Kingdom hasn't come (like the great rock) and crushed all those great empires into powder. We still have "Classical Revival" all around us:

​

Those don't seem, to me, to be the symbols of a truly new Messianic (not "Secular") Order. The ten toes that were shattered by the Messianic stone, therefore, have not been broken yet.

Unless it is not talking about the messianic age. Is Daniel considered to be a part telling of the messianic age?

I guess for me it's hard for me to shake the connection between the book of Daniel and the story of Joseph.

In both cases it is individuals brought into slavery

In both cases they are strangers to a foreign land

Both cases it is a mighty empire

Both cases it is a king having a troubling dream.

In both cases all the kings royal advisors cannot hope to solve the issue

In both cases it is that individual who is a stranger who offers the answer

And in both cases they are rewarded above all the kings other advisors.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Unless it is not talking about the messianic age. Is Daniel considered to be a part telling of the messianic age?

I guess for me it's hard for me to shake the connection between the book of Daniel and the story of Joseph.

• In both cases it is individuals brought into slavery
• In both cases they are strangers to a foreign land
• Both cases it is a mighty empire
• Both cases it is a king having a troubling dream.
• In both cases all the kings royal advisors cannot hope to solve the issue
• In both cases it is that individual who is a stranger who offers the answer
• And in both cases they are rewarded above all the kings other advisors.

Joseph was the forerunner of the family of Israel into Egypt
Daniel was among the earliest of captives to Babylon

However,

Joseph interpreted a dream about the time when Israel entered INTO exile;
Daniel interpreted a dream about the time when Israel would be RETURNED from exile.

They are bookend prophecies. Non-Jews, by the way, should recognized Joseph as a type of Christ: He was not Pharaoh, yet he was given all authority over the land. IMHO, Jesus is not God, but he is given authority over all.

Many Jews see Joseph as the prototype of the "first" messiah, who should suffer, and David as the prototype of the "final" messiah, who will conquer and rule.

David's interpretation probably resembles Joseph's, because BOTH are Messianic prophecies!

PS. Did you get the meaning of the Great Seal? It's written completely in Latin, and the number is in Roman numerals. The White House and US Capitol were also built in Classical Revival style. These are not coincidences: The founding of the new Republic (a Roman form of government) was consciously built upon Roman motifs: We are part of the resurrected/ resuscitated Rome.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

2 Kings 7
[3] And there were four leprous men at the entering in of the gate: and they said one to another, Why sit we here until we die?
[4] If we say, We will enter into the city, then the famine is in the city, and we shall die there: and if we sit still here, we die also. Now therefore come, and let us fall unto the host of the Syrians: if they save us alive, we shall live; and if they kill us, we shall but die.
[5] And they rose up in the twilight, to go unto the camp of the Syrians: and when they were come to the uttermost part of the camp of Syria, behold, there was no man there.
[6] For the Lord had made the host of the Syrians to hear a noise of chariots, and a noise of horses, even the noise of a great host: and they said one to another, Lo, the king of Israel hath hired against us the kings of the Hittites, and the kings of the Egyptians, to come upon us.
[7] Wherefore they arose and fled in the twilight, and left their tents, and their horses, and their *****, even the camp as it was, and fled for their life.

Hey, where did everyone go? wl:

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Joseph was the forerunner of the family of Israel into Egypt
Daniel was among the earliest of captives to Babylon

However,

Joseph interpreted a dream about the time when Israel entered INTO exile;
Daniel interpreted a dream about the time when Israel would be RETURNED from exile.

They are bookend prophecies. Non-Jews, by the way, should recognized Joseph as a type of Christ: He was not Pharaoh, yet he was given all authority over the land. IMHO, Jesus is not God, but he is given authority over all.

Many Jews see Joseph as the prototype of the "first" messiah, who should suffer, and David as the prototype of the "final" messiah, who will conquer and rule.

David's interpretation probably resembles Joseph's, because BOTH are Messianic prophecies!

PS. Did you get the meaning of the Great Seal? It's written completely in Latin, and the number is in Roman numerals. The White House and US Capitol were also built in Classical Revival style. These are not coincidences: The founding of the new Republic (a Roman form of government) was consciously built upon Roman motifs: We are part of the resurrected/ resuscitated Rome.

Well yes, the Roman empire is considered the most successful empire in the western world. All the countries in western europe considered themselves the inheritors of that greatness.