BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Franklin, how are we doing? Did Ian Richardson turn you off? The "judge" picture is, I believe, from "Bleak House".
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Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)
- Thread starter BlandOatmeal
- Start date
jtartar
Well-Known Member
BlandOatmeal,
Each part of the statue represents a World Power. The first one of the statue represents Babylon as the Gold head, the second represents the Meades and the Persions, Silver, third is Greece, Bronze, Forth is Rome, Iron, NEXT the feet, mixed with clay, This represents the Anglo-American World Power, Last the toes also mixed with iron and clay represent the ten Kings mentioned at Dan 7:20, and at Rev 17:12-17, The toes represent both the Ten Kings and the Seven headed Beast with ten horns.
The whole Beast represents political powers, the Heads represent all the World Powers in history that had dealings with God's chosen people, Israel.
The woman called Babylon the Great that is riding on the back of this Beast represents The World Empire of False Religion. Notice that in verse 17:10, it says there are SEVEN Kings, five have fallen, ONE IS, the other has not yet come.
Here is what all this means, The SEVEN kings are seven world powers, They are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes and Persions, Greece, Rome, and The United States and Briton, The Anglo-American World Power. Notice that John writed that FIVE had FALLEN, that was the first Five world Powers, ONE IS, that was Rome which was in power when John wrote Revelation., the other had not arrived yet, which was and still is The Anglo-American world power.
The heads of this beast is the World Power at any given time, the BODY of the Beast represents all the other smaller Kingdoms of the world.
If you look back to Rev 17:1-7, the verses describe Babylon the Great as a great Harlot, riding on the back of the beast. Is that not exactly what religion does to every small or large Kingdom on earth, she trying to keep her power by having immoral relations with the Kings of the earth, which are the Highest ruler in each of these kingdoms, Presidents, Monarchs, Prime Ministers, etc.
Notice that the beast will start to hate the HARLOT and attack her and destroy her, for God had put it into their hearts to do His will, by getting rid of all False Religion. Notice that the last verse 18 says that the woman was like a city that had a Kingdom over the Kings of the Earth, riding on the beasts back, and persecuting God's and Jesus' people, even drunk will all the blood she has spilled. This description can be no other but False Religion, for false religion is the one who has always persecuted God's people, all through history, back in Jesus' day, the crusades, the inquisitions, and most of the wars that have killed hundreds of millions of people, have been caused by religion, Rev 18:24.
So the last King, the EIGHTH King will be The United Nations, Rev 17:11. This beast, The United Nations can be none other, for notice the description, at first she WAS, then WAS NOT, and then IS again. This is exactly what happened in 1920, when the League of Nations was ratified, it WAS, then it went out during WW2, then WAS again, as The United Nations. So as the scriptures tell clearly, the TEN KINGs will give their Power and Authority to the beast, The UN, Rev 17:11-13, 16-18.
The United Nations will be the Eight and LAST KING to rule, before Jesus come to set up his rule of a Thousand Years, Rev 20:1-3, 4-7.
When you see that the nations are starting to give the United Nations power, which will be shortly, KNOW FOR SURE THAT THE END IS VERY NEAR!!!
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Oh no it's the Holiday season so things have gotten wrapped up at work and of course family life.
I'm always rather curious about talks of doomsday or the end times...because it seems illogical to me given todays context. But I stay open to the possibility. I think some people see the world as a lot worst, I see it as better, but I'm also pretty young so I have plenty of time to get rather jaded. So when people quote Daniel and Revelations to me, I look at them in the context of the times they were written, where people felt they were being persecuted and indeed felt powerless. The End where they will be vindicated for their perseverance would be well wished for.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
So far, you have repeated a pretty common interpretation of these things, uncritically. I happen to lean in this direction as well, and have already posted the historical connections. I will caution you as to quoting Revelation here, though; I expressly do not want this, because Jews reject that book and the rest of the "New Testament". I have set aside a thread for the very purpose of discussing the passage you cite. It is HERE.
As I said, I will not discuss her here, nor "the beast" nor anything else from that book; and don't want you to. You can cut/paste your post over to the appropriate thread, if you wish. I will discuss it with you there.
Thank you for posting.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
As my father-in-law often said, "Feelings are unreliable."
Today is December 25 -- probably a good day for filing paperwork and getting ready for taxes.
Jaded? Good heavens! I'm 65, and I don't think I've ever been jaded.
"Doomsday" scenario? I don't know what you're talking about here. Doom for whom? My wife is a nurse. When Zechariah 14 unfolds, I expect she will be very busy at the hospital -- treating burn and radiation victims and such, and that with generators that are useless because their electronics have been fried. "Dooms" day will be a very interesting time, during which I don't think many people will be jaded.
How are you doing with your Roman History study? One of my favorite books of all time is Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." It's DOWNLOADABLE, right HERE. It's very well organized, so you simply have to click on the parts of interest to you. It will help you keep from getting jaded.
Happy Get-your-papers-ready-for-taxes Day! :woohoo:
Shalom shalom
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FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
As my father-in-law often said, "Feelings are unreliable."
Today is December 25 -- probably a good day for filing paperwork and getting ready for taxes.
Jaded? Good heavens! I'm 65, and I don't think I've ever been jaded.
"Doomsday" scenario? I don't know what you're talking about here? Doom for whom? My wife is a nurse. When Zechariah 14 unfolds, I expect she will be very busy at the hospital -- treating burn and radiation victims and such, and that with generators that are useless because their electronics have been fried. "Dooms" day will be a very interesting time, during which I don't think many people will be jaded.
How are you doing with your Roman History study? One of my favorite books of all time is Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." It's DOWNLOADABLE, right HERE. It's very well organized, so you simply have to click on the parts of interest to you. It will help you keep from getting jaded.
Happy Gey-your-papers-ready-for-taxes Day! :woohoo:
Shalom shalom
Lol my view of God and how God operates has changed quite a bit as I've gotten older and I'm sure will keep changing as I get older. And I don't mean that all people will be jaded, but just now, we live in a very jaded cynical world it would seem especially for some of the older groups who believe things are just getting worst.
Thanks for the link!
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
My wife keeps me from getting jaded. We can be walking through the most splendid park, filled with rhododendrons in full bloom, and she stops to admire tiny plants on the ground, not a quarter of an inch across. It's thankfulness to God that keeps me going; but He sent me my wife to point out how many more things there are around me to be thankful for, that I never even noticed before. We're still new at this marriage business, by the way -- 38 years and counting. My sister and her husband just had their 59th.
There were lots of times when I was lonely or depressed, but not jaded. Even in the stockade, in solitary and in admin segregation, I was very engaged in life. That's because I was filled with hope in those days. When my hopes were crushed, I could get deeply depressed; but those times increased my faith. Trusting in men usually leads to disappointment. Even in my marriage, both of us trust in God, not in each other. That lowers expectations considerably, and promotes thankfulness -- which is a powerful weapon against the Enemy.
If some people think things are "just getting worse", then probably their ideas of "better" and "worse" all gummed up. For instance, the US has a terrible President, probably the most inept we've ever had. Is this "bad"? I don't think so. In fact, I believe that God cast the decisive vote to get him elected, in both elections. As a result of his ineptitude, my country is being humbled before the whole world: The Iranians play, and we dance. We make threats, then have to back down. We have an enormous navy, but can't afford to put crews on our ships. We used to be feared all over the world, but now we're Big Bozo. Is that bad? I don't think so. God hears the humble, and knows the proud afar off. I'd rather be humble, and close to God, than proud and walking into destruction.
On Doomsday, the deer will still be grazing in the fields, and the hummingbirds will still be finding nectar. There will be much human suffering, and much human kindness. The Damned will be hiding under rocks, and praying that the rocks will fall on them; but those who love God will be loving one another: healing the sick, visiting the captives, helping the poor... That is what I think the Messianic Age will be all about.
We already have a foretaste of the coming Age, even in these wicked times (and yes, they are exceedingly wicked; it's the "jaded" who don't see this). Who takes care of the poor and needy? In my city, it's the Rescue Mission, the Salvation Army and St. Vincent de Paul's. Where do the poor and uninsured go when they need medical care? to the Catholic hospital. This is how it's been, ever since hairy barbarians overran Rome. Science, medicine and the arts were preserved through the ages through the Church, even in its decadence. Hospitals and orphanages came through the same. The first modern stage plays were Easter pageants. Even winemaking was preserved and enhanced in Catholic monasteries.
That's what happened when Rome met its doom. How much more do you think the church will shine, when everyone's idols melt before their eyes? Is this a bad thing? or good? It's all in the eye of the beholder.
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jtartar
Well-Known Member
BlandOatMeal,
This prophecy is really not difficult to understand once you have the real understanding pointed out.
This huge image stands for the Gentile World Powers starting with the Head of Gold, which stood for Babylon, second, silver is Medes and Persions, third, the Bronze, Greece, forth iron, Rome, fifth, Iron and clay mixed, the Anglo-American world Power, sixth the Ten Toes, stands for the Ten Kings that come from Rome, and that become the Ten Kings mentioned at Rev 17:11-13,16,17. The Ten Toes stands for The Ten Kings that give their power and authority to the wild Beast, and as the scriptures says, to attack Babylon the Great, The Great Harlot, Rev 17:1-6.
Now remember that this Harlot is riding on the back of a scarlet colored,seven headed wild beast. This wild beast stands for the whole number of rulers of this world. The Heads of this beast stand for the seven World Powers that have been on earth, that had dealings with Israel. Notice this beast has seven heads, but there is going to be Eight Kings. This Eighth King is The United Nations. Consider how This is identified, Rev 17:7. First it was The League of Nations, then it was NOT, then it WAS again after WW2, as The United Nations. In history there have been seven World Powers that had dealings with Israel, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes and Persions, Greece, Rome, and The Anglo-American world Power, United States and Briton. The Eighth King is different because it did not become King by defeating the seventh power, but it was given power by the Ten Kings. All these things are also mentioned at Dan 7 & 8. Babylon was the third Kingdom, that is why Rome is spoken of as the fourth, because Daniel was counting from Babylon, when he was alive.
This Great Harlot that is riding on the back of the Scarlet Colored Wild Beast is The Whole world Empire of False Religion. That is the reason that the Ten Kings give their power and authority to the Eight King destroy Her, because she is causing so much trouble in the world. The nations want to try to cause peace, and as we can easily see today, most of the wars and unrest on earth is caused by religion.
When the political elements think they have everything peaceful, they will then see that they have not stopped all religion, because the true religion will be still active. When they make the final attack on true religion, INSTANT DESTRUCTION will come to them, 1Thes 5:2,3, Matt 25:31, Rev 19:11-21.
Remember the stone that was cut, not by hands, crushes all the image and it becomes a Great Mountain, and fills the whole earth, Dan 2:34. This stone pictures what Jesus will do when he comes back to the earth, crushes all the Kingdoms and that Kingdom, God's Kingdom, will stand forever,Dan 2:44.
The reason Daniel is not a prohet in Judaism is because his prophecy of the date of Messiah appearing points directly to Jesus
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Hi, Tartar. I'm sorry I missed your post until now.
The Sephardic Jews came mainly through Spain and Portugal, and the Ashkenazi Jews through Hungary and Poland; whereas the focus of modern Western history was places the Jews had been largely driven out of : Italy, France, Germany, the Low Countries and Britain. It was in these areas that the Pope had his main strength, where the arts were revived and most importantly, where the printing press was invented and put the Word of God into the hands of the Christian masses. Up until that time, the Jews did little reading of Daniel; and the Christians read very little of any of the Bible; so the intended audience of Daniel 2 was Western Europe, and THROUGH THERE (through the proliferation of the written word) into all the world.
That is my understanding; but it is obviously biased toward believers of the New Testament; and as I said before, I prefer to talk about the New Testament on the "Revelation" thread. That way, Jews can come here and present their own insight -- which ought to differ, in light of what I have just said, from the New Testament insight.
As someone pointed out, it stands for the paramount world powers, from the viewpoint of the JEWISH PEOPLE. There have certainly been significant powers in the world, most notably the Mongol Empire and other dynasties of China and India, which were significant in other parts of the world.
Long before the Mongol invasion of Babylon (By this time, to nearby Baghdad), though, the center of Jewish learning moved to Spain:
The track of the bulk of "Judaism", therefore, bypassed not only the Roman Empire, but also the Greeks; because the vast majority of Jews never returned to Palestine from Babylon until modern times. If we follow the track of God's people not with Judaism, though, but with the Christians and ROMAN Jews, we trace it through the Jews who DID return to Jerusalem. These pilgrims and strangers, then, constituted the "eye" of the prophecies, which went from Babylon to the Persian Empire, to the Helenistic states, to the Roman Empire, to Charlemagne's "Holy Roman Empire" to the nations of Europe and finally to America, the "Melting Pot".
The Sephardic Jews came mainly through Spain and Portugal, and the Ashkenazi Jews through Hungary and Poland; whereas the focus of modern Western history was places the Jews had been largely driven out of : Italy, France, Germany, the Low Countries and Britain. It was in these areas that the Pope had his main strength, where the arts were revived and most importantly, where the printing press was invented and put the Word of God into the hands of the Christian masses. Up until that time, the Jews did little reading of Daniel; and the Christians read very little of any of the Bible; so the intended audience of Daniel 2 was Western Europe, and THROUGH THERE (through the proliferation of the written word) into all the world.
That is my understanding; but it is obviously biased toward believers of the New Testament; and as I said before, I prefer to talk about the New Testament on the "Revelation" thread. That way, Jews can come here and present their own insight -- which ought to differ, in light of what I have just said, from the New Testament insight.
I agree with most or all of the above; but as I said, I prefer to discuss Rev. and other NT books on the other thread.
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I realize that I'm not very active in the forums anymore, but I notice that the 'Stone' represents the complete destruction of all of the kingdoms. The stone is made without hands, so it is a representation of something done through the spirit. The story then represents the necessity of the patience of the Jewish people as they suffer through the various kingdoms. There are many mentions of this in the Psalms which emphasize waiting 'Upon the L!RD' and 'Look the L!RD and to his strength -- "Remember the wonders he has done, his miracles, and the judgments He pronounced..." (Psalm 105:5)Bland Oatmeal said:
That is the center and focus of this chapter, not prognostication, not grand strategies and signs of the times. The point is to be patient, not to strike out in anger in vengeance. It means forgiving the world and trying to fix it even when it tries to destroy you. This is waiting upon the L!RD to reduce the kingdoms of this world to dust and to replace them with an enduring kingdom. It is also described as the 'Stone that the builders rejected" in Psalm 118.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Embattled by alleged graft, Erdoğan threatens to ban YouTube, Facebook
Hi, Brick.
I notice that your religion is "Hope". In what?
By your selection of Ps. 118, which was referenced in the NT concerning Jesus, I assume you are saying that the "stone" is the carpenter from Nazareth. I don't think that's an appropriate comparison, though. The "stone" referred to in the Psalm is one which the BUILDERS rejected, which has "become the head of the corner". The "stone" in Daniel 2, on the other hand, was not used for building but for destroying. Here's the first (Ps. 118:22):
אבן מאסו הבונים היתה לראשׁ פנה׃
"Stone", in this case, is "אבן" (pron. "eh-ben")
Of this, the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance says, " from the root of 1129 through the meaning to build; a stone:--+ carbuncle, + mason, + plummet, (chalk-, hail-, head-, sling-)stone(-ny), (divers) weight(-s).
The passage in Daniel 2 (Dan 2:34a), is
חזה הוית עד די התגזרת אבן די לא בידין
Again, the word translated as "stone" is "אבן", so you've got me there. Yes, this is appropriate; because Messiah will become the "chief corner" of the new structure of humanity, after the old structure (the kingdoms of this world) is destroyed.
I disagree, for the most part, with your conclusions. The Jewish people do not need to learn how to be patient and wait. Their behavior during the Holocaust shows that they are the most patient people in the world. Their problem then, was that they did not have a concrete picture of what to wait and hope for. If they realized that God intended to shortly restore their fortunes with the constitution of the modern State of Israel, many more of them would have managed to make their way to Palestine, by hook or by crook. For His sovereign reasons, God allowed WWII to pan out as it did; but those who waited patiently and hoped that Messiah would come and save them from the gas chambers, hoped in vain.
It is important to know how the nations stand, in God's scheme of things. Up until World War II, the nations of Europe (the "ten horns") ruled the world. Those countries were:
- Germany
- Italy
- Japan
- the USSR
- the UK, plus dominions
- France
- Belgium
- Netherlands
- Denmark
- Norway
- the US
To most American Jews, who represent about half the surviving Jewish population, the United States was a place of freedom, something of a "promised land". If these Jews would read Daniel properly, though, they would see it as the eleventh horn that sprang up and uprooted three others (probably Germany, Italy and Japan). The Jews of Europe, of course, who trusted that God would keep them among the ten Great Powers, died in the Holocaust.
It's important to know that God does NOT want the Jews to find their security and identity in the Beast: They belong in Israel, not in Babylon, Germany, Poland or the US. I am quite certain that disaster awaits the American Jews in the near future. That is a "prognostication" feature of Daniel. If the bulk of American Jews deny their faith in deference to the beast, their hope in some sort of "moral messiah" will be in vain. In fact, those who hope for such a one and do not heed the warnings of those very real things that are about to befall the earth, are liable to follow after the False Messiah of the end-times -- a sugar-coated version of trusting in the State and denying the existence of the God of Israel.
My background is protestant charismatic plus some christian cult influences, but I've become independent from all of that. I like to say that I 'Believe all things' now. The fact is I'm unwilling to return to my roots, but I'm also not willing to commit to a new way of life which would require being essentially alienated from my family and any friends that remain. Its a bit of a limbo but its better than being totally alone.Bland Oatmeal said:
I made no mention of any text other than Daniel and Psalms. Its true that Christians borrow from Psalm 118, but they don't give it meaning. It already has meaning, and I think that is what your opening post is asking about rather than how Daniel is applied to Christian texts, though that is one aspect of it. The real gist for an ancient Jewish person I think must have been the waiting for all of the evils in the world to be vanquished by the L!RD, presumably for modern ones, too. That meaning continues to be relevant to me, so I think that my 'Hope' is not unrelated to theirs. Really I hope for many of the same things. You know what if their hopes were realized I think mine would be too. That is not meant to insult anything written by Christians. I do think that Christians often tend to turn Daniel into a grab-bag of symbols and totally miss the point of it in the process.Bland Oatmeal said:
I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that they needed to learn patience. I think that the book Daniel is inspiring them (inspiring in the past and present) to patience. All of these things you have mentioned, various pogroms etc., these things would make me want to take revenge. Jews are very often sidelined and harrassed in the various places where they live, but they don't mount up huge armies to slaughter everyone in vengeance! Instead what has happened? Instead, in keeping with the dictates of their ancestors they leave the vengeance up to the L!RD. You can also see their culture influence Christian culture and writings. For instance Paul says "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but are mighty..." In Revelation Jesus makes war with a sword that comes out of his mouth, not his hands. These are all related to the stone on Daniel chapter 2 and to the story of how Jacob cursed against the vengeful anger of his sone, Levi and of David who wasn't permitted to build the L!RD's temple because of his bloody hands. The message is clear -- not to have bloody hands, not to seek vengeance. Peace is really very heavily impressed in Daniel. Consider Daniel, a young prince captured and castrated by Babylon, nevertheless seeks to benefit the country that castrated him. That is the theme of Daniel.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
I know that "Believing all things" is a quote from the NT; but you know I don't want to discuss the NT on this particular thread (which I started). I have a Roman Catholic, Charismatic, Pentecostal, Jewish and Messianic background -- not all at once, of course. I don't "believe all things", in the way I imagine most people understand that saying: I believe what's said in the Bible, plain and simple. Lots of people try to make that sound complicated; but as far as I'm concerned, that's their problem.
I started this thread, so another poster would have a place to talk with me about a subject he said he was interested in. He's since said he's no longer interested, and split the scene.
Jesus quotes from Psalm 118, asking the Jewish leaders what THEY think it means. I think they understood the "stone" to refer to Messiah, as I think can pretty well be inferred by comparing it to the stone mentioned in Daniel 2. I started to argue with you about whether the comparison was valid, and conceded that it is. The question Jesus was posing, of course, was whether or not they thought HE was that Messiah; and noting that it had been prophesied long beforehand, that the leaders of the Jews would reject him.
That's what I understand about Psalm 118. In discussing Daniel, though, I am trying to keep these matters separate. That is why I created a whole other thread, incorporating NT teachings in the discussion of Daniel, Zechariah, etc.; because they indeed build, one upon the other; and Revelation and other NT scriptures indeed provide a believer with much detail about those OT books. I just don't want those scriptures HERE, though, because they needlessly obfuscate things. Daniel stands on its own two feet; and God has known all along that the Jews would reject the NT. Still, He inspired Daniel to write it TO THE JEWS, just He and them. When you and I look at those scriptures, we are seeing them, as it were, reading over the shoulders of the Jews. God has messages there for us, to be sure; but He also has a message just for them, apart from the NT; and I want to hear their take on it. The alternative is to shut them up, and learn nothing from them; and that is not profitable to anyone.
Yeah, and I see Christians thinking this way too. It should be obvious to all, that these evils were not vanquished concerning the Jews; and even today, though they have a country of their own, they have the whole world opposing them because of it. Christians ought to take their cue from this: The Jews ARE God's chosen; and if God allows this to happen to his chosen ones, the nations shouldn't think that they'll somehow escape.
They have, in the distant past; but not for the past 1400 years.
I never checked to see what shape his genitals were in. It's enough for me, that he was thrown to the lions. Yes, Daniel is a role model for Jews.
God has been fighting on behalf of the Jewish people lately, and I am glad to see it. What really disturbs me, though, is seeing so many of my countrymen take lightly the great attack that is being mounted against God's anointed ones, His messianic nation. Europe bought a ticket to hell long ago; but even Americans are starting to turn: If it were to come to a choice between losing some cash advantage, and throwing the Jews and their Homeland to the crocodiles, I'm afraid my countrymen would make the wrong choice -- and heap ruin upon themselves.
One thing you said about the "stone" before, has me wondering. Indeed, that stone is a spiritual thing; because I don't think God intends to replace the nations of the world with yet another worldly order. Zechariah 14 makes it pretty clear how the nations of the earth will be DESTROYED -- they will blow each other up. What it doesn't say is how, exactly, Messiah will replace them with a Godly government.
The destruction of the Western Roman Empire gives me a cue: It was overthrown by barbarians, who made a wreck of government institutions. I don't think the Romans shed too many tears over that: They were being taxed to death, to support an onerous bureaucracy (Sound familiar?). What replaced that bureaucracy was, ironically, rule by the CHURCH. Even in its carnal, earthly form, the church provided local government, hospitals, education and a social safety net. Eventually, the monasteries became seats of learning that brought science and the arts back into the Western World.
I expect something along these lines to happen in the end times; only this time, hopefully, the church will have been perfected through its suffering. It will not be "church as usual"; The Bible says (OT and NT) it will be one new man, built from two old enemies; but who will believe this?
I doubt that the Jewish people accept this; but they certainly should be thinking along these lines. Who will bring righteousness, justice and Godliness to the Jewish nation? The ultra-Orthodox? I think at least 80% of Jews in Israel would roll in the aisles with laughter at that thought, what with all the drug-dealing, graft, corruption and sex abuse going on among the ultra-Orthodox leadership. I don't know what the Jews think will save them. Robo-Jew? Someone with a "Good-ray" gun that will zap people into being nice? Zechariah 14 prophecies awful things for the Jews; and they even accept Zechariah as a "prophet"! What plans have they made for such times?
I would like some Jewish input on this matter. This is REAL stuff, not pie in the sky.
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CMike
Well-Known Member
While I appreciate your reply, I feel like pointing out that I view the messianic movement as a problem. Jew or Christian pick one. I won't go into the reasons here. I also oppose joint Jewish-Christian funds to send money to Israel or any joint Christian Jewish thing that does not actively oppose charlatan miracle workers as its primary function.Bland Oatmeal said:
Thank you. Its not the messiah. Jesus didn't call it the messiah, and the 'Pharisees' didn't think it was the messiah. That's what I think. If you ask me the 'Early Christians' thought of the Stone as a principle rather than some person. Call it the 'hands off' principle. Its not perfectly clear but it appears that Jesus tells peter that the 'Rock' upon which he was to found the church was the fact that only the Father revealed to Peter who Jesus was. Again, 'hands off'. That is what is reflected in the story handed down from student to student until the writings were put down into the gospels. The Messiah doesn't appear in scripture. Kings appear in scripture, prophets, priests and other anointed ones, but 'The Messiah' is and has always been an interpretation of scriptures never a plain reading that I know of. Now, maybe there is a messiah concept or maybe there isn't. There is 'The suffering servant', 'The son' etc; but these are in plain reading referring to Israel. Israel is made of people who have hands, hence they cannot be the stone made without hands. Therefore even if there is a Messiah, it isn't the stone in my opinion. That's two layers of opinion, two objections. 1. There could be a Messiah in scripture but its not obvious that there is 2. The stone isn't a messiah but a principle or the direct action of the L!RD (which may be the same thing and probably are -- different subject no time for it). Sorry if this is just too far out there for you.
I posit to you that anything that comes out of Jesus mouth in the gospels can be reconstructed from three books : Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Psalms. Most of Paul, Peter, James and John can all be constructed from there. Now then Jesus clearly states that someone who believes they have served him may not be and someone who doesn't believe they serve him might be. The Jews of today, whom I have surveyed in my own way, are following Jesus already. It doesn't matter if they confess his name or not. The people to worry about are the ones who put a lot of stock in names.
It is understandable that religious Jews at first opposed the creation of Israel but now think that since somebody already did it they have to see it through. I can see Israel the country as potentially a fulfillment, maybe, perhaps. Why not? I recognize Israel's right to exist as a country. Its just a country though. Its a country, like China is a country. Let me tell you this, too, that 'The Jews' aren't 'God's chosen'. They are called. They are in a future sense striving to be God's chosen people, but God doesn't need them. He could destroy them and start over. It would be horrible, but the point is that they are God's called people not God's chosen people. They are called to bless the entire world.
Well, I think it was very stupid of Putin and the previous Czar to drive the Jews out of their country. It is the first sign of a stupid governor. The USA does a great job of keeping our Jews happy. I once worked with a Jewish man who had fled from Russia in the early 2000's. He was an accountant there, and they stupidly kicked him out. Jews don't feel like they have to flee the USA, so we get the benefit of having them here. They do good things for the country. If Russia hadn't persecuted its Jews, maybe it wouldn't be having such terrible financial times. Israel 'The country' takes Jews away from other countries -- less than ideal. Many Jews, understandably, have had nowhere to go and need a place. Nevertheless in the perfect future all of the countries, if they are smart, will tempt all of the Jews to leave Israel except for a skeleton crew. Lets be practical and stop trying to cram more Jews into that tiny piece of land far away where they can only benefit themselves.
We seem to be very different from each other, but let me say that as far away from you as I seem we are closer to each other than either of us could ever be to God. That's monotheism for you.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
I get on fine with God, and He's right here. He made me, and never lost track of me. You're not that close to me -- I don't even know where you are.
Thanks for posting.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)
Daniel 2:31-35.
Here we have a prediction of the rise of Islam.
Early Islam clashed first with Rome and then with Iran. When they clashed with Rome, Rome had conquered the Alexandrian Empire of Greece and had become more powerful than ever; and when they clashed with Iran, Iran had extended its power over Babylon.
When their clashes resulted in the destruction of both Rome and Iran, then did the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, break to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors.
The order of events in the dream and their interpretation by Daniel leave no doubt as to their meaning.
Everybody knows that Babylon was succeeded by Persia and Midia and the power of Persia and Midia was broken by Alexander and the Empire of Alexander was replaced by that of Rome which from its
Eastern seat of authority at Constantinople laid the foundation of a mighty Europo-Asiatic Empire.
This Asiatic Roman Empire was defeated and destroyed by the Holy Prophet and his Companions. Once receiving a report that the Roman armies intended to attack the Muslims, he led an expedition in person to the Syrian border. But no regular fighting then took place.
Irregular skirmishes and raids, however, continued till regular fighting was resumed in the time of Abū Bakr which resulted in the total discomfiture and annihilation of the Roman Empire in the time of Umar, the Second Khalīfa, when the Persian Empire also suffered defeat at the hands of Muslim armies.
Thus both these once mighty empires shrank into diminutive and distant States.
Muhammad in the Bible: Pages 42-45
By Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/muhammadinbible/MITB.pdf
Regards
Daniel 2:31-35.
Here we have a prediction of the rise of Islam.
Early Islam clashed first with Rome and then with Iran. When they clashed with Rome, Rome had conquered the Alexandrian Empire of Greece and had become more powerful than ever; and when they clashed with Iran, Iran had extended its power over Babylon.
When their clashes resulted in the destruction of both Rome and Iran, then did the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, break to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors.
The order of events in the dream and their interpretation by Daniel leave no doubt as to their meaning.
Everybody knows that Babylon was succeeded by Persia and Midia and the power of Persia and Midia was broken by Alexander and the Empire of Alexander was replaced by that of Rome which from its
Eastern seat of authority at Constantinople laid the foundation of a mighty Europo-Asiatic Empire.
This Asiatic Roman Empire was defeated and destroyed by the Holy Prophet and his Companions. Once receiving a report that the Roman armies intended to attack the Muslims, he led an expedition in person to the Syrian border. But no regular fighting then took place.
Irregular skirmishes and raids, however, continued till regular fighting was resumed in the time of Abū Bakr which resulted in the total discomfiture and annihilation of the Roman Empire in the time of Umar, the Second Khalīfa, when the Persian Empire also suffered defeat at the hands of Muslim armies.
Thus both these once mighty empires shrank into diminutive and distant States.
Muhammad in the Bible: Pages 42-45
By Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/muhammadinbible/MITB.pdf
Regards