Stereotype of porn watchers

[ryobi]

Women who hate porn are like women who hate sweets. It's easy for those women to abstain from something they have no affinity for, and it's easy for them to judge others who have that affinity. On the other hand, if you're a women and you like sweets, it's not so easy to obstain, and you're also not likely to judge others who share your affinity.

Anyways, why judge? In moderation, sweets never hurt anyone.

 

[Poeticus]

Trying to back-peddle by mentioning patriarchy as a sexist system doesn't change the fact that you expressed a sexist generalization about men. Which is hilarious, given the irony.

Bingo was his name-o!

 

[philbo]

As much as someone can argue that the western world is a patriarchy, someone could also argue the western world is a matriarchy. For example men in the United States spend 63% more time in prison than women when they are arrested for the same crime. How else can you explain this discrepancy other than gender bias that's a result of matriarchy?

Men staying in prison longer than women for the same offences doesn't make a society matriarchal, it doesn't even imply that: most of the people doing the sentencing are men, the conclusion I'd draw is that judges (who are mainly men) sentence men more harshly for the same crimes.

I can go trawling for the article, but this has come up on another forum, and someone referenced research that shows female judges sentence women more harshly than male ones and vice versa.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Sorry, but you totally were.


Sorry but I totally wasn't

You made a blatant generalization that men deep-down are sexist, without making any references to patriarchy.
No I made a claim that men are generally sexist without explaining how I thought men came to be generally sexist.
You said even if they change they are still sexist deep-down - implying that even without patriarchy, men in general are sexist.
Nope, I meant even if for example a man views women in a certain way which is sexist at say aged 25 and doesn't think that way at aged 50, it still means men are in general sexist even if some men at certain points in their life evolve in their thinking
I'm sorry but I'm calling you out on this one. Trying to back-peddle by mentioning patriarchy as a sexist system doesn't change the fact that you expressed a sexist generalization about men. Which is hilarious, given the irony.

Maybe you should also try using your privilege to educate some of the men of this forum too instead of being hung up on me.

I wasn't back peddling. If I thought men were born sexist (which would contradict all of my posts on gender around this forum) I would of said so, I am very honest like that.

 

[Aquitaine]

Maybe you should also try using your privilege to educate some of the men of this forum too instead of being hung up on me.

I wasn't back peddling. If I thought men were born sexist (which would contradict all of my posts on gender around this forum) I would of said so, I am very honest like that.

Admittantly, we could argue over the specific wording in your initial claim, but then I think we might just end up getting bogged down in word games.

Either way, what you said remains a blatant and rather daft generalisation of half the world's population, especially since you are supposed to be fighting against sexism and foolish generalisations.

Also, my privilege?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Admittantly, we could argue over the specific wording in your initial claim, but then I think we might just end up getting bogged down in word games.

Either way, what you said remains a blatant and rather daft generalisation of half the world's population, especially since you are supposed to be fighting against sexism and foolish generalisations.

It's not a foolish generalization, it makes a whole lot of sense that under a sexist system/culture men in general are sexist.

 

[Aquitaine]

It's not a foolish generalization, it makes a whole lot of sense that under a sexist system/culture men in general are sexist.

Out of curiosity then, since you've already explained how men became generally sexist, how did women become generally sexist?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Out of curiosity then, since you've already explained how men became generally sexist, how did women become generally sexist?

Explain what you mean by women being generally sexist?

 

[Aquitaine]

Explain what you mean by women being generally sexist?

What? I'm not allowed to make blatant generalisations about the opposite sex now?

Explain what you mean about men being generally sexist, or is it only sexist when men do it?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

What? I'm not allowed to make blatant generalisations about the opposite sex now?

Explain what you mean about men being generally sexist, or is it only sexist when men do it?

I never said you can't say it, I asked what do you mean by women being sexist.

 

[Aquitaine]

I never said you can't say it, I asked what do you mean by women being sexist.

I mean women (like men) holding sexist beliefs and attitudes. I acknowledge that sexism is a two-way street, I just don't understand your view which seems to be "it doesn't count when WE do it".

Kinda reminds me of "Only White people can be racist".

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If I may?

My guess is that Horrorble is using the systemic context of the word "sexist", while Aquitaine is using the individual context of the word "sexist." There is no doubt that people across the board can hold prejudiced views and biases according to what they have learned about other people. However, I think the roadblock can be understood as the distinctions between the scope of the impact of sexism.

So, perhaps Horrorble isn't suggesting that men in a vacuum will exhibit sexist thoughts and behaviors, but that she is suggesting that men in an environment that is systemically pervasive sexism against women will - like everyone else, including women - fall in line with the status quo.

I think Aquitaine and others are taking Horrorbles assessment of a patriarchal social structure as an attack against men. Having enough conversations with her at RF, I don't believe that is her intent. I think her assessment of men living in a patriarchal society is that she believes men are unaware of how they perpetuate the status quo.

Given enough time, I'm sure she can point out how women perpetuate the patriarchal status quo, too. The patriarchal status quo, by its very nature, is sexist against women.

I apologize, Horrorble, if I have misrepresented your views. I felt you were being misunderstood, however, and that is why I jumped in.

 

[Aquitaine]

If I may?

My guess is that Horrorble is using the systemic context of the word "sexist", while Aquitaine is using the individual context of the word "sexist." There is no doubt that people across the board can hold prejudiced views and biases according to what they have learned about other people. However, I think the roadblock can be understood as the distinctions between the scope of the impact of sexism.

So, perhaps Horrorble isn't suggesting that men in a vacuum will exhibit sexist thoughts and behaviors, but that she is suggesting that men in an environment that is systemically pervasive sexism against women will - like everyone else, including women - fall in line with the status quo.

I think Aquitaine and others are taking Horrorbles assessment of a patriarchal social structure as an attack against men. Having enough conversations with her at RF, I don't believe that is her intent. I think her assessment of men living in a patriarchal society is that she believes men are unaware of how they perpetuate the status quo.

Given enough time, I'm sure she can point out how women perpetuate the patriarchal status quo, too. The patriarchal status quo, by its very nature, is sexist against women.

I apologize, Horrorble, if I have misrepresented your views. I felt you were being misunderstood, however, and that is why I jumped in.

That may very-well be true, and it's a valid point. But in this thread I am not seeing Horrorble write things like "Patriarchy in general is sexist in nature" or "people under patriarchy in-general are sexist against women" - instead I am reading "Men in general are sexist".

Then when I suggested women in general being sexist, I got a response of disbelief.

I'm perfectly fine with observing and criticizing patriarchal systems, and I too do no favour it. I also do generally admire Horrorble's passion and conviction with wanting to deal with issues like this, but sometimes it just seems that "men" and "patriarchy" are being used synonymously and equally attacked.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

If I may?

My guess is that Horrorble is using the systemic context of the word "sexist", while Aquitaine is using the individual context of the word "sexist." There is no doubt that people across the board can hold prejudiced views and biases according to what they have learned about other people. However, I think the roadblock can be understood as the distinctions between the scope of the impact of sexism.

So, perhaps Horrorble isn't suggesting that men in a vacuum will exhibit sexist thoughts and behaviors, but that she is suggesting that men in an environment that is systemically pervasive sexism against women will - like everyone else, including women - fall in line with the status quo.

I think Aquitaine and others are taking Horrorbles assessment of a patriarchal social structure as an attack against men. Having enough conversations with her at RF, I don't believe that is her intent. I think her assessment of men living in a patriarchal society is that she believes men are unaware of how they perpetuate the status quo.

Given enough time, I'm sure she can point out how women perpetuate the patriarchal status quo, too. The patriarchal status quo, by its very nature, is sexist against women.

I apologize, Horrorble, if I have misrepresented your views. I felt you were being misunderstood, however, and that is why I jumped in.

hallelujah....hallelujah.....hallelujah....hallelujah....hhhhaaaallluuu..uuujjjaahhh

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I believe this conversation started with how me saying how men embarrass me in general (I was joking at the time by the way)
So yes was about men, I don't see why I have to give examples for how women can be self-loathing and support patriarchy. Accepting the short end of the stick IS DIFFERENT from being in a position of privilege.

 

[Aquitaine]

I believe this conversation started with how me saying how men embarrass me in general (I was joking at the time by the way)
So yes was about men, I don't see why I have to give examples for how women can be self-loathing and support patriarchy. Accepting the short end of the stick IS DIFFERENT from being in a position of privilege.

I understand you were joking, and to be honest I only began to take objection when you started talking about men being sexist in general, whilst at the same time having an attitude of "boo-hoo/cry me a river" when the situation is reversed.

I am however keeping in mind your criticism of patriarchy and of "systemic" sexism as opposed to "individual" sexism, I just don't necessarily see that as being primarily caused by men in general. The fight is supposed to be against patriarchy not men in general (half the world's population).

At the moment it just sounds like you've got beef with men in general.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I understand you were joking, and to be honest I only began to take objection when you started talking about men being sexist in general, whilst at the same time having an attitude of "boo-hoo/cry me a river" when the situation is reversed.

I am however keeping in mind your criticism of patriarchy and of "systemic" sexism as opposed to "individual" sexism, I just don't necessarily see that as being primarily caused by men in general. The fight is supposed to be against patriarchy not men in general (half the world's population).

At the moment it just sounds like you've got beef with men in general.

Saying men are sexist in general for the reasons I have already described is not having "beef" with half the worlds population. Once again accepting the short end of the stick is different from having privilege and being able to use it.
And I would come down on a woman for supporting patriarchy as well, but I don't see why I have to say that all the time for people not to think I hate men.

 

[Revoltingest]

Saying men are sexist in general for the reasons I have already described is not having "beef" with half the worlds population. Once again accepting the short end of the stick is different from having privilege and being able to use it.
And I would come down on a woman for supporting patriarchy as well, but I don't see why I have to say that all the time for people not to think I hate men.

I never thought you hate us.
You even seem to like us.
Sometimes our sense of humor will mislead, eh.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That may very-well be true, and it's a valid point. But in this thread I am not seeing Horrorble write things like "Patriarchy in general is sexist in nature" or "people under patriarchy in-general are sexist against women" - instead I am reading "Men in general are sexist".

Then when I suggested women in general being sexist, I got a response of disbelief.

I get that. My interpretation of her posting style and intent is that we should not forget the distinction of which gender currently has societal and economic privilege when compared side by side.

I'm perfectly fine with observing and criticizing patriarchal systems, and I too do no favour it. I also do generally admire Horrorble's passion and conviction with wanting to deal with issues like this, but sometimes it just seems that "men" and "patriarchy" are being used synonymously and equally attacked.

Oh I don't doubt your support for women. I think Horrorble's posting style is misconstrued many times because I see sarcasm and caustic speech being displayed by her. Sometimes, when discussing sensitive topics, sarcasm and caustic speech is a roll of the dice on how it is received.

She and I disagree on a few key points ourselves, but I don't believe she's ever attacked me. Even though her posting style hasn't changed between her targeting how she sees men perpetuating patriarchy, and how sex-positive feminists perpetuating patriarchy (that can be a tongue twister right there lol). She still IMO has made it clear that patriarchy is the real enemy, but she doesn't hold back on who she thinks keeps the patriarchy machine running.

Sorry to keep talking about you in the third person, H. And I really really really don't want people to think I'm speaking for you. This is simply how I see your posts, and why I think what you have to say has merit to it.

 

[Aquitaine]

Saying men are sexist in general for the reasons I have already described is not having "beef" with half the worlds population. Once again accepting the short end of the stick is different from having privilege and being able to use it.
And I would come down on a woman for supporting patriarchy as well, but I don't see why I have to say that all the time for people not to think I hate men.

Well in that case, just choose your wording more carefully then to avoid retaliation/misinterpretation. Patriarchy is sexist in general.

BTW I still think you're making a daft generalization though with men being sexist in general.