STOP PA's "Marriage Protection Amendment.

[Divine Androgyne]

Regardless of your agenda , to attack or be rude or offensive, detracts from the purpose of your cause .It creates ammunition and distracts , i.e all this conversation about how things should be said ,instead of people supporting the cause .To be derogatory in any way is to be low brow , and creates a chasm in wich those who oppose your points of view can change focus away from the issue at hand. let your enemy be as rude and derogatory as possible , take the higher road , be the bigger person. People will notcie , and respect your actions, your words , and your principles.

Right.:areyoucra

 

[Ardent Listener]

Regardless of your agenda , to attack or be rude or offensive, detracts from the purpose of your cause .It creates ammunition and distracts , i.e all this conversation about how things should be said ,instead of people supporting the cause .To be derogatory in any way is to be low brow , and creates a chasm in wich those who oppose your points of view can change focus away from the issue at hand. let your enemy be as rude and derogatory as possible , take the higher road , be the bigger person. People will notcie , and respect your actions, your words , and your principles.

I feel I can see why gays can get upset about issues like this, but I feel that going overly offensive only works against the gay cause. I'm not so sure that the PA pitition was overly offensive though. A lot of straight people don't like the "in your face" attacks some gays make. Even those who would support your cause. I'm sure it works the other way around too. I'm :sorry1: if that upsets some of you, but that's the way it I see it.

 

[robtex]

AE, what is overtly offensive about use legal means and political avenues to attempt to stop a law that would ban marriage for them? In addition do you support the PA amendment and if so why?

 

[mr.guy]

Regardless of your agenda , to attack or be rude or offensive, detracts from the purpose of your cause.

How does this hold when a homosexual's existence alone is considered offensive?

 

[Ardent Listener]

AE, what is overtly offensive about use legal means and political avenues to attempt to stop a law that would ban marriage for them? In addition do you support the PA amendment and if so why?

This has got to be quick because I got to work..............

Answer #1. Nothing.- Just watch the wording. Catch more flys with honey?

Answer #2. I signed it. Why? Because it freaken frightens me to outlaw the freedoms of some, when others have it.

 

[Pah]

I feel I can see why gays can get upset about issues like this, but I feel that going overly offensive only works against the gay cause. I'm not so sure that the PA pitition was overly offensive though. A lot of straight people don't like the "in your face" attacks some gays make. Even those who would support your cause. I'm sure it works the other way around too. I'm :sorry1: if that upsets some of you, but that's the way it I see it.

I seem to remember a bit of American history, where "in the Biritish face" secured the freedoms that should be applied to everyone today. The LGBT community is not any way near what it took in those days. Count your blessings that LGBT's are not in your face as they could be to eliminate the tryanny of religious despots - despot a person (or organizations like the Christian Right) who wields powers oppressively.

 

[Ardent Listener]

I seem to remember a bit of American history, where "in the Biritish face" secured the freedoms that should be applied to everyone today. The LGBT community is not any way near what it took in those days. Count your blessings that LGBT's are not in your face as they could be to eliminate the tryanny of religious despots - despot a person (or organizations like the Christian Right) who wields powers oppressively.

So, let me get this straight.........Your saying I'm the bad guy here, because I support gay marriage, but have the opinion that a lot of other straight people are polarized away from gay causes because of the rude way some gay people express themselves?

Sometimes some gay people just seem to go out of their way to make it dam hard for straight people to try to support their cause.:banghead3

 

[Divine Androgyne]

I seem to remember a bit of American history, where "in the Biritish face" secured the freedoms that should be applied to everyone today. The LGBT community is not any way near what it took in those days. Count your blessings that LGBT's are not in your face as they could be to eliminate the tryanny of religious despots - despot a person (or organizations like the Christian Right) who wields powers oppressively.

Nice going Pah.:sarcastic

 

[Abram]

I almost thought I misunderstood what this act was about by the way everyone is okay with this. Do you know what your supporting? Do you? I shouldn't even respond but my heart hurts now. I've teared up. I will toss the religion aside and please understand I'm not anti-gay.

By passing something like this you are saying to your self and the world that a man is a unnecessary need to raise a child, not important, useless, just a burden, garbage, nothing but piece of meat. At the same time you are saying that mom offers nothing to raising a child, that the love that a females give and teach is worthless. WHAT! Mom/Dad?

Listen I don't hate, don't care about the gay community, in fact your fun to party with. But do not tell me you can raise a kid up in this world without dad. There is even dads here, people I've seen on forums agreeing to their worthlessness. What about mom, can you imagine being in 6th grade and everyone has storys about mom and you have dad and dad.

I'll stop here and have much love for everyone but don't mess up our future because you think your being nice. Think about the future.

 

[Divine Androgyne]

I almost thought I misunderstood what this act was about by the way everyone is okay with this. Do you know what your supporting? Do you? I shouldn't even respond but my heart hurts now. I've teared up. I will toss the religion aside and please understand I'm not anti-gay.

By passing something like this you are saying to your self and the world that a man is a unnecessary need to raise a child, not important, useless, just a burden, garbage, nothing but piece of meat. At the same time you are saying that mom offers nothing to raising a child, that the love that a females give and teach is worthless. WHAT! Mom/Dad?

Listen I don't hate, don't care about the gay community, in fact your fun to party with. But do not tell me you can raise a kid up in this world without dad. There is even dads here, people I've seen on forums agreeing to their worthlessness. What about mom, can you imagine being in 6th grade and everyone has storys about mom and you have dad and dad.

I'll stop here and have much love for everyone but don't mess up our future because you think your being nice. Think about the future.

Oh Pah, why don't you go after guys like this and leave those who support us alone?

 

[CaptainXeroid]

So, let me get this straight.........Your saying I'm the bad guy here, because I support gay marriage, but have the opinion that a lot of other straight people are polarized away from gay causes because of the rude way some gay people express themselves?
Sometimes some gay people just seem to go out of their way to make it dam hard for straight people to try to support their cause.:banghead3

Frubals to you for this post! You saw how several people responded when I made a similar point.

...Catch more flys with honey?...

Yes, this is true, even if some people do not understand it.

...Count your blessings that LGBT's are not in your face as they could be to eliminate the tryanny of religious despots..

NO...if you support legal recognition of same sex marriage as I do, WE need to count our blessings that LGBTs DO NOT do this. Do you not understand that such an action would probably push enough moderates off the fence and galvanize opponents to pass an amendment to the US Constitution outlawing gay marriage??

Even when your cause is just, when you are greatly outnumbered, you must use diplomacy, tact, and patience, or your shouts will quickly be drowned out by the roar of the tyranny of the majority.

 

[Pah]

So, let me get this straight.........Your saying I'm the bad guy here, because I support gay marriage, but have the opinion that a lot of other straight people are polarized away from gay causes because of the rude way some gay people express themselves?

Sometimes some gay people just seem to go out of their way to make it dam hard for straight people to try to support their cause.:banghead3

Actually, I'm saying that "in your face" is relative and sometimes needed. Freedom rides, lunch counter sit-ins, marches were all "in your face" to many. Someones attitude to accessing equality should have no bearing on the issue. Blacks were "uppity", patriotic revolutionaries are terrorists, and LGBT's are "in your face". All these characterazations degrade the issue. When we stood and identified ourselves before a Virginia Senate Committee meeting, we definitely were "in the face" of those homophobics on the committee. We (and not one flamboyant dresser in the group) were a political movement that needed to be identified at that time and in that place.

Too often, "you're in my face" covers a deeper loathing.

I make no asperations as to your support but it IS a neccessary tactic to oppose the suppression "in the face" of LGBT's

 

[Fallen Goddess]

Actually, I'm saying that "in your face" is relative and sometimes needed. Freedom rides, lunch counter sit-ins, marches were all "in your face" to many. Someones attitude to accessing equality should have no bearing on the issue. Blacks were "uppity", patriotic revolutionaries are terrorists, and LGBT's are "in your face". All these characterazations degrade the issue. When we stood and identified ourselves before a Virginia Senate Committee meeting, we definitely were "in the face" of those homophobics on the committee. We (and not one flamboyant dresser in the group) were a political movement that needed to be identified at that time and in that place.

Too often, "you're in my face" covers a deeper loathing.

I make no asperations as to your support but it IS a neccessary tactic to oppose the suppression "in the face" of LGBT's

I'm sad that this thread has come to this. When I posted it I want to try to bring people together here so that someday gay people could have the freedom to love and marry like the rest of us.

Pah, you were not only in the face of "those homophobics on the committee", it appears you were also in the face of someone who supports your cause, Ardent Listener.

 

[Pah]

...
Pah, you were not only in the face of "those homophobics on the committee", it appears you were also in the face of someone who supports your cause, Ardent Listener.

Yeah you're right and I apologize.

That phrase was key just a few years ago to most of the movement. Gays and crossdressers were in fact chanting things like "we're queer and we're here" in direct provocation. But since that time, not that it has disappeared entirely, it is but one tactic of a minority (a really small percentage, I think) of the sexually surpressed. We have seen even on this forum, civil argument go nowhere, religious and secular argument ignored because of the "uckky" factor. I would wager that LGBT is still "in their face" even though they have left the forum.

I have also seen some discrimination between homosexual and transexual. That is a big rift in the movement and I'm afraid I just added to it. Sorry.

But let me plead that there is a time and a place and a degree of "in your face" warranted. I certainly wish diplomacy would cure all injustice but it just doesn't happen often enough. We are fighting politically a strong opponent who thinks nothing of demeaning LGBT and allied supports as trash and not fit for basic citizenship. The argument is rooted in church dogma and has latched on to political power. The basic motive can never be attacked but it must be overcome somehow. Don't deny a tool in the bag of actions that can take place. There comes a time when a person must stand and say "I'm here, this is me, get over it" Let that happen or at least don't disparage it.

 

[Green Gaia]

I almost thought I misunderstood what this act was about by the way everyone is okay with this. Do you know what your supporting?

Yes I do. Equal marriage rights for ALL people regardles of sexual orientation.

By passing something like this you are saying to your self and the world that a man is a unnecessary need to raise a child, not important, useless, just a burden, garbage, nothing but piece of meat. At the same time you are saying that mom offers nothing to raising a child, that the love that a females give and teach is worthless. WHAT! Mom/Dad?

(To quote a very wise man) Baseless bullpuckie.

But do not tell me you can raise a kid up in this world without dad. There is even dads here, people I've seen on forums agreeing to their worthlessness. What about mom, can you imagine being in 6th grade and everyone has storys about mom and you have dad and dad.

Single parents raise wonderful children, why is your problem with gay parents? All the srudies done on children of gay parents say are just as adjusted (or not) as kids of straight parents. So why your attack on parents simply because they are gay.

BTW, before you respond you should know, I am a parent and I am gay. I take this issue very personally.

I'll stop here and have much love for everyone but don't mess up our future because you think your being nice. Think about the future.

Equal rights is the future, my friend. Get use to it.

 

[opensoul7]

mr guy,
My statement is true wether some hates or likes you.You can only worry about the things within your own control.

 

[opensoul7]

Abram,
No one is saying that dad is unecessary or mom, that is your perception. I believe what makes a parent is not who donated biologicaly , but who fills the role , gives you love and suport, teaches and guides you. There are many children raised by a grandparent, or Aunt , uncle , god parent , or stranger in the case of adoption.Sometimes it is singular sometimes it is plural .What matters is that they love the child. You can't stop hate in someone else , only they themselves can. And so what if everyone has stories about mom and you have dad and dad , mabey they have mom and dad but the parents are not involved in said childs life , but dad and dad are. I would take two people who loved me any day. One thing a parent needs to teach their child is to be comfortable in who you are. Everyones life is already different . just because you are raised in a hetrosexual enviroment does not mean you get a free pass and your life is going to be great. Nor if your raised in a homosexual enviroment will you be doomed.

 

[Fallen Goddess]

Yeah you're right and I apologize.

That phrase was key just a few years ago to most of the movement. Gays and crossdressers were in fact chanting things like "we're queer and we're here" in direct provocation. But since that time, not that it has disappeared entirely, it is but one tactic of a minority (a really small percentage, I think) of the sexually surpressed. We have seen even on this forum, civil argument go nowhere, religious and secular argument ignored because of the "uckky" factor. I would wager that LGBT is still "in their face" even though they have left the forum.

I have also seen some discrimination between homosexual and transexual. That is a big rift in the movement and I'm afraid I just added to it. Sorry.

But let me plead that there is a time and a place and a degree of "in your face" warranted. I certainly wish diplomacy would cure all injustice but it just doesn't happen often enough. We are fighting politically a strong opponent who thinks nothing of demeaning LGBT and allied supports as trash and not fit for basic citizenship. The argument is rooted in church dogma and has latched on to political power. The basic motive can never be attacked but it must be overcome somehow. Don't deny a tool in the bag of actions that can take place. There comes a time when a person must stand and say "I'm here, this is me, get over it" Let that happen or at least don't disparage it.

Thank you for your reply Pah.

 

[pdoel]

Ugh. I actually understand the point about catching more flies with honey . . .

But, it also bothers me that people seem to think that all gays are "in your face". I've read many, many, many posts on here from people upset when someone makes a point against a religious groups, because they feel the person is speaking about ALL people of religion.

But, it's ok for those same people to equate the actions of a few gay people, to all of them.

I am forced to sit and listen to people call me an abomination, tell me I belong in Hell, listen as they tell me I made a choice, when I know for a fact I did not. Have them tell me I have no rights to marry.

After the last election, there was much talk against the religious right. People are starting to fear the changes going on in this country as a result of the religious right. I hear the religious right calling for the censoring of ALL media. I hear them wanting the public to take responsibility for raising their own children, because they don't have the time, and therefore, want to take away many people's rights. I've heard them use MANY derogatory terms to describe people they find offensive. I've heard them outright attack people. You can't turn on the news without hearing another statement from Pat Robertson, calling for the destruction of people that he sees as being immoral.

But, you comment on it, and the religious right is outraged. They can use whatever terms they want. They can be as offensive as they want. And that is ok. And if you call them on it, then you see thread after thread asking why are people so mean towards Christians.

Yet, this petition uses the term "radical" and "right-wing" and now people are telling the gays to be nice, calm down.

As I said, I understand that you can catch more flies with honey. But that goes both ways. Maybe the Christians who are SUPPOSED to be teaching love and acceptance out to give that a try themselves. Practice what you preach.

 

[Ardent Listener]

Ugh. I actually understand the point about catching more flies with honey . . .

But, it also bothers me that people seem to think that all gays are "in your face". I've read many, many, many posts on here from people upset when someone makes a point against a religious groups, because they feel the person is speaking about ALL people of religion.

But, it's ok for those same people to equate the actions of a few gay people, to all of them.

I am forced to sit and listen to people call me an abomination, tell me I belong in Hell, listen as they tell me I made a choice, when I know for a fact I did not. Have them tell me I have no rights to marry.

After the last election, there was much talk against the religious right. People are starting to fear the changes going on in this country as a result of the religious right. I hear the religious right calling for the censoring of ALL media. I hear them wanting the public to take responsibility for raising their own children, because they don't have the time, and therefore, want to take away many people's rights. I've heard them use MANY derogatory terms to describe people they find offensive. I've heard them outright attack people. You can't turn on the news without hearing another statement from Pat Robertson, calling for the destruction of people that he sees as being immoral.

But, you comment on it, and the religious right is outraged. They can use whatever terms they want. They can be as offensive as they want. And that is ok. And if you call them on it, then you see thread after thread asking why are people so mean towards Christians.

Yet, this petition uses the term "radical" and "right-wing" and now people are telling the gays to be nice, calm down.

As I said, I understand that you can catch more flies with honey. But that goes both ways. Maybe the Christians who are SUPPOSED to be teaching love and acceptance out to give that a try themselves. Practice what you preach.

Pdoel,

I hope your not refering to me with what you wrote above. If you are, go back to my previous posts and you will see that I used the words "some gays" and did not imply that all gay or even the majority of gay people were in-your-face. In addition, I did not state that the I found fault in the wording of the PA petition. Had I, I would not have signed it.

I don't mean to be in-your-face- about this, but I'm not going to allow others to misquote me or distort the meaning of my posts.

And as I have posted on this site before, I do not support the religious right in their treatment of gay and/or transgender people.

I hope this makes my position clear.


Good luck in your struggle, but seriously, I'm considering not getting involved in it any more. I'm sick of catching hell from both the religious right and the very gay/transgener people I have been trying to support.