STOP PA's "Marriage Protection Amendment.

[Ardent Listener]

Yeah you're right and I apologize.

That phrase was key just a few years ago to most of the movement. Gays and crossdressers were in fact chanting things like "we're queer and we're here" in direct provocation. But since that time, not that it has disappeared entirely, it is but one tactic of a minority (a really small percentage, I think) of the sexually surpressed. We have seen even on this forum, civil argument go nowhere, religious and secular argument ignored because of the "uckky" factor. I would wager that LGBT is still "in their face" even though they have left the forum.

I have also seen some discrimination between homosexual and transexual. That is a big rift in the movement and I'm afraid I just added to it. Sorry.

But let me plead that there is a time and a place and a degree of "in your face" warranted. I certainly wish diplomacy would cure all injustice but it just doesn't happen often enough. We are fighting politically a strong opponent who thinks nothing of demeaning LGBT and allied supports as trash and not fit for basic citizenship. The argument is rooted in church dogma and has latched on to political power. The basic motive can never be attacked but it must be overcome somehow. Don't deny a tool in the bag of actions that can take place. There comes a time when a person must stand and say "I'm here, this is me, get over it" Let that happen or at least don't disparage it.

Thank you for the apology Pah. Please don't think your arguments don't go anywhere. I have changed my opinions about gay people rights, in part, from many of the wonderful posts I have read on this site. The thread that asked for good reasons, other than religous, why there should not be gay marriage?, was enlightening.

I think that maybe 20% of all people will fight gay rights no matter what you say or do. But that leaves the other 80% of us who are open minded and even more so, open hearted. In my case, my heart opened before my mind did.

 

[BUDDY]

I'm sad that this thread has come to this. When I posted it I want to try to bring people together here so that someday gay people could have the freedom to love and marry like the rest of us.

Pah, you were not only in the face of "those homophobics on the committee", it appears you were also in the face of someone who supports your cause, Ardent Listener.

I am sorry that you are saddened by the outcome of this thread, but it is a very divisive issue and people feel very strongly about it.

I am sorry to tell you that I will not be signing the petition or anything like it. I do not believe that the term marriage should be given to couples of the same sex, for a multitude of reasons. I think that the majority has a right to strike down such actions and pass laws protecting marriage and I support the stand of the majority of the people in this country in doing so. I do not believe that marriage is a civil right to be inforced by the government. I am sorry that to say these things results in the automatic labeling of me and people with beliefs like me as homophobic (which I am not), radical (which I am not) and ignorant (which I don't believe that I am, but I am sure others would disagree).

 

[Green Gaia]

I do not believe that marriage is a civil right to be inforced by the government.

If that is your stance, then the government should not be involved in giving specials rights and priviledges to ANY couple. That would be the only fair course of action for a SECULAR government to take.

I support the stand of the majority of the people in this country in doing so.

The majority is notoriously wrong when it comes to the rights of minorities.

 

[Green Gaia]

I have a question to anyone -

What exactly are these amendments supposed to be protecting? They do not outlaw divorce or adultry or separation. They have nothing whatsoever to do with heterosexual marriage. So tell me how they are supposedly "protecting" it?

When I read these amendments all I see is discrimination against BGLT people being written into our state Constitutions. Whatever your feelings about gay people, does that not bother you?

 

[pdoel]

Pdoel,

I hope your not refering to me with what you wrote above. If you are, go back to my previous posts and you will see that I used the words "some gays" and did not imply that all gay or even the majority of gay people were in-your-face. In addition, I did not state that the I found fault in the wording of the PA petition. Had I, I would not have signed it.

Nope, not at all directed at you.

More of a general comment. It kinda deals more with stereotypes. Christians don't like to be stereotyped as extremists. Blacks don't like to be stereotyped as thugs. Gays don't like to be stereotyped as in your face queens. Etc. etc. etc. And each group gets upset when people stereotype them (which is perfectly normal).

It seems ok though, for many Christians to say hurtful things and get away with it. But in this petition, the wording really isn't offensive, and people are upset, and wanting the gays to be nice and not offend.

I've spent my life being offended (intentionally) by people. Using the terms "radical" and "right-wing" are nothing, compared to terms I've been called.

Sorry, but that's not right, and not something I can just sit back and say, "Yessah!" over.

 

[Abram]

Abram,
No one is saying that dad is unecessary or mom, that is your perception. I believe what makes a parent is not who donated biologicaly , but who fills the role , gives you love and suport, teaches and guides you. There are many children raised by a grandparent, or Aunt , uncle , god parent , or stranger in the case of adoption.Sometimes it is singular sometimes it is plural .What matters is that they love the child. You can't stop hate in someone else , only they themselves can. And so what if everyone has stories about mom and you have dad and dad , mabey they have mom and dad but the parents are not involved in said childs life , but dad and dad are. I would take two people who loved me any day. One thing a parent needs to teach their child is to be comfortable in who you are. Everyones life is already different . just because you are raised in a hetrosexual enviroment does not mean you get a free pass and your life is going to be great. Nor if your raised in a homosexual enviroment will you be doomed.

This has nothing to do with perception. And yes by passing this idea you are saying a dad and mother roles are unescessary, we could do without either. This is discrimination in the worst sort of way.

Homosexuals should be treated with respect and accored basic civil rights. But this is not a matter of rights, its a matter of reality. Marriage is what it is precisely because of the differences between men and women and the complementarity that flows out of those differences.

Study after study will show children need a mom and dad! Even children who grow up in single parent homes still have a concept of it. But a homosexual couple, no matter how loving, can not afrim this concept.

 

[BUDDY]

If that is your stance, then the government should not be involved in giving specials rights and priviledges to ANY couple. That would be the only fair course of action for a SECULAR government to take.
The majority is notoriously wrong when it comes to the rights of minorities.

And is the minority notoriously right when trying to inforce their will on the majority? Does the majority have to bow to the will of a minority simply because if they do not they are labelled as bigotted? No group of people are always right, but in a democracy the will of the majority is often what will be protected by law. I think that is what you have here, unless it can be proven that the right for homosexuals to marry is constitutionally protected, and I don't believe it is. If so, under what ammendment or were in the bollof rights would you find it? And if it is a civil right, and it is obvious, then the matter would have been closed a long time ago.

 

[robtex]

Study after study will show children need a mom and dad! Even children who grow up in single parent homes still have a concept of it. But a homosexual couple, no matter how loving, can not afrim this concept.

Could you find some documentations on the web to support this statement?

 

[Green Gaia]

And is the minority notoriously right when trying to inforce their will on the majority?

Inforce their will on the majority? No one is going to force the heterosexuals to have a same sex marriage! C'mon. You will not be forced against your will to do anything simply by giving EVERYONE equal rights!

Does the majority have to bow to the will of a minority simply because if they do not they are labelled as bigotted?

No. They have to give equal rights to the minorty because IT IS THE FAIR AND AMERICAN THING TO DO!

No group of people are always right, but in a democracy the will of the majority is often what will be protected by law.

And so the rights of the minorities should just be discarded because the majority don't care? No! That's why we have the court system and every single discriminatory "marriage protection" amendment WILL BE overturned and ruled unconstitutional.

I think that is what you have here, unless it can be proven that the right for homosexuals to marry is constitutionally protected, and I don't believe it is. If so, under what ammendment or were in the bollof rights would you find it? And if it is a civil right, and it is obvious, then the matter would have been closed a long time ago.

ALL people (including BGLT people!) have the right to be treated equally. If you give straight people special rights and priviledges just for making a legal commitment to each other, then you MUST do the same for gay couples. It is what is fair. If gay couples don't have access to the same special rights and priviledges that straight couples do, then that is discrimination. How can anyone in America the land of FREEDOM stand by and watch and support this discrimination unless they think that gay and lesbians are inferior to heterosexual people and therefore do not deserve the equal rights? Is that what it is? Tell me why I don't deserve the same rights as you, Buddy.

 

[Green Gaia]

This has nothing to do with perception. And yes by passing this idea you are saying a dad and mother roles are unescessary, we could do without either. This is discrimination in the worst sort of way.

No one is discounting the importance of fathers or mothers. Many of us grew up believing that everyone needs a mother and father, regardless of whether we ourselves happened to have two parents, or two good parents. But as families have grown more diverse in recent decades, and researchers have studied how these different family relationships affect children, it has become clear that the quality of a family’s relationship is more important than the particular structure of families that exist today. In other words, the qualities that help a child grow into a good and responsible adult – learning how to learn, to have compassion for others, to contribute to society and be respectful of others and their differences – do not depend on the sexual orientation of their parents but on their parents’ ability to provide a loving, stable and happy home, something no class of Americans has an exclusive hold on.

That is why research studies have consistently shown that children raised by gay and lesbian parents do just as well on all conventional measures of child development, such as academic achievement, psychological well-being and social abilities, as children raised by heterosexual parents.

That is also why the nation’s leading child welfare organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Physicians and others*, have issued statements that dismiss assertions that only heterosexual couples can be good parents -- and declare that the focus should now be on providing greater protections for the 1 million to 9 million children being raised by gay and lesbian parents in the United States today.

Granting same-sex couples the right to marry, therefore, would enable the millions of same-sex parents raising children today to give their children what every child deserves – the safest, most secure environment possible, with all the legal protections that our country has put in place.


*Read what professional organizations say about GLBT parenting:

• American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (1999)
• American Academy of Family Physicians (2002)
• American Academy of Pediatrics (2002)
• American Bar Association (1995, 1999 and 2003)
• American Medical Association (2004)
• American Psychiatric Association (1997 and 2002)
• American Psychoanalytic Association (2002)
• American Psychological Association (1976 and 2004)
• Child Welfare League of America (1988)
• National Association of Social Workers (2002)
• North American Council on Adoptable Children (1998)

Homosexuals should be treated with respect and accored basic civil rights.

If that's how you truly believe then why do you not support equal legal rights for gay couples?

 

[Green Gaia]

Just some of the rights and benefits denied to gay and lesbian couples:

Tax Benefits

• Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
• Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits

• Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
• Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
• Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
• Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.

Government Benefits

• Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
• Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
• Receiving public assistance benefits.

Employment Benefits

• Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
• Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
• Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
• Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits

• Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
• Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

Death Benefits

• Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
• Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits

• Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
• Applying for joint foster care rights.
• Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
• Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits

• Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
• Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits

• Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
• Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
• Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections

• Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
• Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
• Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
• Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
• Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.
• Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
• Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

 

[Green Gaia]

I have a question to anyone -

What exactly are these amendments supposed to be protecting? They do not outlaw divorce or adultry or separation. They have nothing whatsoever to do with heterosexual marriage. So tell me how they are supposedly "protecting" it?

I'd still like someone to answer this question for me....how are discriminatory amendments protecting anyone or anything?

 

[Abram]

No one is discounting the importance of fathers or mothers. Many of us grew up believing that everyone needs a mother and father, regardless of whether we ourselves happened to have two parents, or two good parents. But as families have grown more diverse in recent decades, and researchers have studied how these different family relationships affect children, it has become clear that the quality of a family’s relationship is more important than the particular structure of families that exist today. In other words, the qualities that help a child grow into a good and responsible adult – learning how to learn, to have compassion for others, to contribute to society and be respectful of others and their differences – do not depend on the sexual orientation of their parents but on their parents’ ability to provide a loving, stable and happy home, something no class of Americans has an exclusive hold on.

That is why research studies have consistently shown that children raised by gay and lesbian parents do just as well on all conventional measures of child development, such as academic achievement, psychological well-being and social abilities, as children raised by heterosexual parents.

That is also why the nation’s leading child welfare organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Physicians and others*, have issued statements that dismiss assertions that only heterosexual couples can be good parents -- and declare that the focus should now be on providing greater protections for the 1 million to 9 million children being raised by gay and lesbian parents in the United States today.

Granting same-sex couples the right to marry, therefore, would enable the millions of same-sex parents raising children today to give their children what every child deserves – the safest, most secure environment possible, with all the legal protections that our country has put in place.


*Read what professional organizations say about GLBT parenting:

• American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (1999)
• American Academy of Family Physicians (2002)
• American Academy of Pediatrics (2002)
• American Bar Association (1995, 1999 and 2003)
• American Medical Association (2004)
• American Psychiatric Association (1997 and 2002)
• American Psychoanalytic Association (2002)
• American Psychological Association (1976 and 2004)
• Child Welfare League of America (1988)
• National Association of Social Workers (2002)
• North American Council on Adoptable Children (1998)

I can go find as many studies to show that it's unhealthy, but thats pointless here.

If that's how you truly believe then why do you not support equal legal rights for gay couples?

This is where it happens, where they make you feel like it's rights thing, or if you don't support it you must be a hater. This has nothing to do with equal rights. I want to marry my dog because I love him. But I can't. So I say its against animal rights. Don't hate on me if I love my dog, and yes we have sex so what, it's love. I come home and he never back talks and is always loving, always.

Now you may laugh at his story and be dying to make a joke about it, but don't that would be discimination. And yes people do really sleep with animals and one day it will be okay. This whole thing is like a magic trick, you can't see whats realy going on here. Find me a nation, city, state, tribe that has succeded with these morals in place. Be gay, do whatever, I don't care. But the second you tell me a dad is not important to raise a child, then you are the hater, you are discriminating me. So stop telling me my role in life in worthless.

 

[Divine Androgyne]

[/size]
[/list]I can go find as many studies to show that it's unhealthy, but thats pointless here.
This is where it happens, where they make you feel like it's rights thing, or if you don't support it you must be a hater. This has nothing to do with equal rights. I want to marry my dog because I love him. But I can't. So I say its against animal rights. Don't hate on me if I love my dog, and yes we have sex so what, it's love. I come home and he never back talks and is always loving, always.

Now you may laugh at his story and be dying to make a joke about it, but don't that would be discimination. And yes people do really sleep with animals and one day it will be okay. This whole thing is like a magic trick, you can't see whats realy going on here. Find me a nation, city, state, tribe that has succeded with these morals in place. Be gay, do whatever, I don't care. But the second you tell me a dad is not important to raise a child, then you are the hater, you are discriminating me. So stop telling me my role in life in worthless.

You're not worthless. Will you be my dad? I don't have one and that is why I'm so messed up. If so, do I have to bring my dog?

 

[Green Gaia]

This is where it happens, where they make you feel like it's rights thing, or if you don't support it you must be a hater. This has nothing to do with equal rights.

It has EVERYTHING to do with equal rights. BGLT people want the same (equal) rights that straight people have. Why is that so hard to understand?

I want to marry my dog because I love him. But I can't. So I say its against animal rights. Don't hate on me if I love my dog, and yes we have sex so what, it's love. I come home and he never back talks and is always loving, always

How dare are you compare the love of 2 adults to having sex with animals! HOW DARE YOU?!

But the second you tell me a dad is not important to raise a child, then you are the hater, you are discriminating me. So stop telling me my role in life in worthless.

That is a lie. I never said such a thing nor do not believe that.

 

[Abram]

How dare are you compare the love of 2 adults to having sex with animals! HOW DARE YOU?!

Just because you don't like it does not make it wrong.

That is a lie. I never said such a thing nor do not believe that.

Listen this is making no progress. I don't hate and if it makes you feel any better in less then five years it will be legal in many states if not all. I'm not stupid and the power behind this movment is to strong to stop. I just feel discriminated against, just like they feel it.

 

[Pah]

...I just feel discriminated against, just like they feel it.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Green Gaia]

Listen this is making no progress. I don't hate and if it makes you feel any better in less then five years it will be legal in many states if not all. I'm not stupid and the power behind this movment is to strong to stop. I just feel discriminated against, just like they feel it.

:biglaugh: You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? :biglaugh:

 

[opensoul7]

abram,
"This has nothing to do with perception. And yes by passing this idea you are saying a dad and mother roles are unescessary, we could do without either. This is discrimination in the worst sort of way."(posted by Abram)
"No one is saying that dad is unecessary or mom"(posted by opensoul7)
It has everything to do with perception , because I never said anything about about parents not being necessary. But your perception is that if I am opposite of your opinion then that is what I am saying.It is not discrimination your more than welcome to raise your children in a hetrosexual enviroment if you so wish . If you feel bestiality is right , or marriage to your animal,then I suggest you start a group to fight for that right .Write your local state and Federal goverments and open them to your ideas of what is right and wrong.Put your name and face behind your cause and show everyone how important it is to you. And this is not a sexual issue , animal or otherwise it is about marriage.People regardless of sexual orientation can have sex without being married.

 

[pdoel]

This has nothing to do with perception. And yes by passing this idea you are saying a dad and mother roles are unescessary, we could do without either. This is discrimination in the worst sort of way.

Study after study will show children need a mom and dad! Even children who grow up in single parent homes still have a concept of it. But a homosexual couple, no matter how loving, can not afrim this concept.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Nobody is saying that a man/woman can no longer marry or have children. When it comes to certain things such as hiring, and forcing companies to hire so many minorities, I can understand where reverse discrimination can come into play. There are times when a white male is turned down for a job that he is more qualified for, just because the company needs to hire more minorities.

However, in a situation with gay marriage, there is no discrimination involved against a male/female couple. Now, if there were laws forcing adoption agencies to give more children to a male/male or a female/female couple, then you might have a point.

Like it or not, there are a variety of family types out there right now. Male/female, male only, female only, children raised by grandparents, aunts or uncles, children in foster care, children of abusing parents, children of male/male couples, female/female couples.

What you are basically saying is that you are ok with all these other families, you just don't want a child to grow up with a male/male or female/female couple. THAT'S discrimination. Do you think children should be ripped from a parent's care if their opposite sex spouse dies?

There are so many worse situations a child could be raised in, rather than by a gay couple. How many stories do we have to hear on the news about abused children who had two heterosexual parents?

I think we should be thinking of the child, not the parents. If the child is raised by two loving parents, who cares what the make up is?