Storm over the Mormons - for Non-Mormons

[Father Heathen]

Religion is protected by the United States Constitution.

But nobody's religious beliefs or practices are being threatened, so what is your point exactly?

What's being forced is acceptance.

Nobody is being "forced" to "accept" anything. I do not accept and disagree with your mormon beliefs and practices, yet I still support your RIGHT to believe and practice as you wish (as long as you don't victimize and violate the rights of innocent people in the process). Isn't it funny how that works? Are you "forcing" the "community" to "accept" your mornonism by merely existing amonst them? Of course not. But you have the right to do and be regardless of what some "community" might think of your mormonism, correct? If you don't believe in gay marriage, then you don't marry someone of the same sex. If I don't believe in Mormonism, then I won't convert to it. Pretty simple. People need to learn that personal beliefs are just that; personal. Those beliefs are for YOU to follow and abide by, not to shove up the *** of those who do not share them.

When women and minorities struggled for equal rights, did they simply shrug their shoulders and give up with every little set back? I'm of the opinion that rights, liberty, equality and justice are worth fighting for, even if they happen to be unpopular with certain communities. And it's an arrogant notion to think that "communities" should be able to dictate the rights and liberty of other people, anyway. If the shoe was on the other foot, the mormons would be screaming persecution.

 

[Watchmen]

The community is being forced to accept gay marriage.

I'm stating fact. I've made no judgment as to whether it's right or wrong, so cool your socks a bit, will ya.

 

[Storm]

Sorry, facts are, you know... factual.

 

[Father Heathen]

The community is being forced to accept gay marriage.

You keep repeating this, yet you fail to explain it. What does it even mean? How is anyone "forced to accept" anything? Were racists "forced to accept" interracial marriage? Were misogynists and chauvinists "forced to accept" a woman's right to vote? Are anti-mormon evangelists "forced to accept" your right to practice your faith? Are vegans "forced to accept" your right to eat meat? Are you "forced to accept" my right to consume coffee and tea? No one is "forced to accept" anything. One thing that citizens of this country do have to accept however is fact that that America is supposed to be a nation of rights, liberty, equality and justice. You and "your community" don't agree with me drinking tea, but would you come over and slap the cup out of my hand?

 

[Watchmen]

You keep repeating this, yet you fail to explain it. What does it even mean? How is anyone "forced to accept" anything? Were racists "forced to accept" interracial marriage? Were misogynists and chauvinists "forced to accept" a woman's right to vote? Are anti-mormon evangelists "forced to accept" your right to practice your faith? Are vegans "forced to accept" your right to eat meat? Are you "forced to accept" my right to consume coffee and tea? No one is "forced to accept" anything. One thing that citizens of this country do have to accept however is fact that that America is supposed to be a nation of rights, liberty, equality and justice. You and "your community" don't agree with me drinking tea, but would you come over and slap the cup out of my hand?

Oh - I hate this ****.

The Mormons hate me - the gays hate me - father heathen hates me.

The fact that I can't make anyone happy probably means I'm right.

I'm tired of this.

 

[Magic Man]

Religion is protected by the United States Constitution.

Marriage is a state issue.

What's being forced is acceptance.

No, it's not. No one has to accept it, they just have to let others do it. Mormon churches can still disagree, and still won't have to actually perform gay marriages. That would be forcing acceptance. I disagree strongly with the KKK, and I don't like their meetings, and I don't "accept" them. However, as long as they don't hurt anyone, they can do what they want.

 

[darkendless]

The community is being forced to accept gay marriage.

I'm stating fact. I've made no judgment as to whether it's right or wrong, so cool your socks a bit, will ya.

As they should be. Denying it in the first place was wrong.

If we denied mormons or evangalicals or muslims marriage they'd kick up a stink and go bezerk so why should they be allowed to do it to another minority group? Sick people, did they honestly think gay people wouldnt be a little ticked off that the church tried to fight against their rights?

I think the percentage of mormons wouldn't have copped so much heat if they didn't actively try and fight gay marriage. The facts are that they did and they deserve to be ostracized from society for actively trying to impose their will upon it.

I agree with your statement completely, i'm just saying why i think its wrong.

 

[Magic Man]

Oh - I hate this ****.

The Mormons hate me - the gays hate me - father heathen hates me.

I don't hate you, you just have misconceptions due to your affiliation with LDS. You can at least see that gay marriage should be legal, and that's the biggest thing. The problem is the whole persecution complex. The only thing Mormons are being forced to accept is that other people are different from them, just like I'm forced to accept that in regards to Mormons or the KKK. The difference is I'm OK with that idea.

The fact that I can't make anyone happy probably means I'm right.

I'm tired of this.

Yeah, that's what that means.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't plan on participating in this thread, but I do need to correct you. You use polygamy as an example of a fundamental doctrine that is changed by revelation. The fact is, the doctrine of polygamy never changed. The doctrine was in place before Joseph Smith began the practicing it. The doctrine was in place while the Saints were practicing it. And, the doctrine is still in place today. Plural marriage is an eternal doctrine of the LDS Church. It will always be there. What changes over time is whether God gives us permission to practice the doctrine or not. That permission was always required as described in the Book of Mormon - a writing that existed well before Joseph began practicing the doctrine. The revelation you claim changed polygamy didn't change it all. It was simply a revelation removing the permission to practice the doctrine.

Also, your claim that "bingo, it was never doctrine," is flawed as well. That which is doctrine is what is in our canon. There are many practices and procedures that are followed. There are many unofficial teachings that are agreed upon virtually by all the members. But if these things are not in our canon then they are not doctrine.

Well I suppose in the same way, when the Mormon Church accepts same-sex marriage, God will have given you permission to stop practicing the current doctrine of opposing it. Comes out the same to us.

I believe gay marriage is an inevitability. However, it will come to pass by well-run campaigns focusing on educating the people about gay families - NOT gay adversaries. Thus, bashing Mormons is, ultimately, an ineffective way at moving towards gay marriage.

I don't know quite what you meant here by "gay adversaries." Do you mean Gay people, or adversaries to gay people, or what? I'm not quite getting you.

Personally, I think a key role is played by gay people reaching out to their own families. In this case, gay Mormons.

 

[Autodidact]

Religion is protected by the United States Constitution.

Marriage is a state issue.

What's being forced is acceptance.

I don't care if you (or anyone) accepts it or not. I care whether it's legal or not.

 

[Watchmen]

Well I suppose in the same way, when the Mormon Church accepts same-sex marriage, God will have given you permission to stop practicing the current doctrine of opposing it. Comes out the same to us.

It's not the same at all, but I no longer expect you to understand.

 

[Magic Man]

It's not the same at all, but I no longer expect you to understand.

What's not the same? You were allowed to do it at one point, and now you're not.

 

[Watchmen]

How quickly people forget who's on their side. It's not enough that I vote with you - you want me to bow to your whims and see things exactly as you do. Perhaps this is the middle ground spoken of in the other thread - and you reject it - even when it is beneficial to you.

 

[Watchmen]

What's not the same? You were allowed to do it at one point, and now you're not.

*sigh*

I've explained it many times.

Polygamy
The doctrine has always existed and permission has been given and removed throughout time.

Same Sex Marriage
The doctrine has never existed. It's not a matter of permission being given or not.

The difference is as plain as day to me. If you don't see it then it's because you're blinded by your own prejudice.

 

[Magic Man]

*sigh*

I've explained it many times.

Polygamy
The doctrine has always existed and permission has been given and removed throughout time.

Same Sex Marriage
The doctrine has never existed. It's not a matter of permission being given or not.

The difference is as plain as day to me. If you don't see it then it's because you're blinded by your own prejudice.

*sigh*

I'm not sure how else to explain this. You were allowed to do something for a period of time but not before or after. You can use any terms you want to differentiate, but it's all the same.

And, yeah, it must be my prejudice that's blinding me so that I can't see the convoluted way of rationalizing things you Mormons use.

 

[Smoke]

How is anyone "forced to accept" anything?

They are being forced to accept the principle that we have (or aspire to have) freedom of religion in this country, and that they may not give their religious bigotry the force of law to deny equal rights to other citizens.

Why Mormons, of all people, should have trouble accepting this principle is beyond me.

 

[Smoke]

Oh - I hate this ****.

The Mormons hate me - the gays hate me - father heathen hates me.

The fact that I can't make anyone happy probably means I'm right.

I'm tired of this.

Oh, grow up. This is a forum. People are going to disagree with you. It doesn't mean they hate you.

 

[DadBurnett]

*sigh*

I've explained it many times.

Polygamy
The doctrine has always existed and permission has been given and removed throughout time.

Same Sex Marriage
The doctrine has never existed. It's not a matter of permission being given or not.

The difference is as plain as day to me. If you don't see it then it's because you're blinded by your own prejudice.

Same sex marriage doctrine never existed? Well, as far as we know ...
What comes to mind is what is hidden within the Hill Cumorah ... records of God's dealing with human beings beyond what's in the Bible or BofM. How can we say for sure that it NEVER existed?

 

[Watchmen]

*sigh*

I'm not sure how else to explain this. You were allowed to do something for a period of time but not before or after. You can use any terms you want to differentiate, but it's all the same.

And, yeah, it must be my prejudice that's blinding me so that I can't see the convoluted way of rationalizing things you Mormons use.

I knew you wouldn't get it.

It's not the same at all.

 

[Watchmen]

Was there ever a time when plural marriage was not doctrine? No.

Was there ever a time when same sex marriage was not doctrine? Yes.

Answer X does not equal Answer Y.

They are different.