Straw Man and God

[Sinncubus-74]

Yeah, read them.

What about them?

Figured it was relevant to the discussion. Probably should've clarified when I said 'check them out' I wasn't necessarily referring specifically to you to but for anyone interested, sorry.

 

[osgart]

The trouble with a personal God is that you are relying on your own personal conceptions and feelings. God becomes only what you are feeling and thinking. There is no outside presence to stand up to that feeling and thinking to tell you 'yes' or 'no'.

Even reading Scripture, the Scripture is subject to your interpretation and understanding of it.

Me, personally, the closest I have come to a higher power and authority is the objective meanings I hold virtues to be. I establish for myself that there is a truth. Then I try to determine what the highest good is of the meanings I derive from my truth.

At the end of it all I am only a human looking into the deep abyss of this reality. And I am only left with myself at the ends of all my seeking. The physical creature I am cannot fulfill the ideals I set for myself. I have limits, and finitude. I can only admire what I contemplate to be real of my truth. It becomes like a God to me but I see only my understandings. I have submitted to something with my finite understandings.

Then I realize to always seek out better understandings, especially those that are not my own but reflect reality with inspiration to keep going. Otherwise I would have to reinvent the wheel time and time again when society is far beyond the wheel.

So I wonder that perhaps all this religion is living inside of someone else's story. Whereas I never write my own story for me own life.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, I'm ignorant for sure on that subject. From what I've seen, god as explained by the Bahai faith seems to be inspired by a compilation of the various religious interpretations of god from different religions of the past, but it does seem to be firmly rooted in the Abrahamic idea of what god is. That said, god doesn't seem as strictly confined in a box as ideas on god from other Abrahamic belief systems teach. I can't compare Bahaism with the eastern religions it incorporates since I don't know too much about Hinduism, Buddhism, or Sikhism.

The idea of god in UU seems similar, though more encompassing than what I see in Bahaism. In UU, even pagan ideas of god are accepted and disgussed, where as I'm not so sure people of the Bahai faith would entertain those practices too much. I can't imagine many Bahai folks would take things like the Havamal or Druidry too seriously.

It is a short explanation.

There is only One God. Unknowable in Essence. God is defined by us, in our acceptance of the Messengers and how we see each of them in our given nature and nurture.

Thus the simple way to define this is for a Baha'i is that, God is One and all the Messengers are One in Spirit, emanating from that same light.

The differences are our own mind. We are challenged to alter our frames of reference to be all inclusive.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

View attachment 34712

Thats the way

“.. Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths...."

That immersion is in any of God's Words.

Regards Tony

As long as this...

Doesn't lead to this...

 

[SigurdReginson]

It is a short explanation.

There is only One God. Unknowable in Essence. God is defined by us, in our acceptance of the Messengers and how we see each of them in our given nature and nurture.

Thus the simple way to define this is for a Baha'i is that, God is One and all the Messengers are One in Spirit, emanating from that same light.

The differences are our own mind. We are challenged to alter our frames of reference to be all inclusive.

Regards Tony

Thanks for that clarification.

That makes me wonder, then. What would the Bahai viewpoint be on gods or religions that exist without being revealed from a messenger? There are plenty of indigenous practices that were passed down via stories and myths through oral traditions that evolve through the ages. Native American legends come to mind. Also, Does a holy text require a revelation to be recognized? The Havamal comes to mind, as it was written (or parts of it were written) during the viking age. It could have been written as one text, or altered and changed over the course of 300 years. It was a poem of significance for pagans of the past, and even more for pagans of today. Many modern pagans regard it as a holy text for sure.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As long as this...

Doesn't lead to this...

Correct In one way and in another one may relish all that happens when one takes that leap, which could be a lifetime of first aid.

Regards Tony

 

[PruePhillip]

So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

Everybody believes in MIRACLES.
Some believe in the Miracle that God created the universe.
Others believe a greater Miracle - that the universe created
itself, something conceptually absurd and scientifically
impossible.

 

[PruePhillip]

Why are we assuming that whatever "set the universe into motion" is some kind of conscious agent or person? Furthermore, why are we assuming he's a he?

Can a universe set itself in motion without space, time, energy, maths or physics?
Put simply, the universe CANNOT CREATE ITSELF. It is created/formed by
forces OUTSIDE of the creation.

 

[EtuMalku]

So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

No, because there is no God to hear his prayers.

 

[dybmh]

Correct In one way and in another one may relish all that happens when one takes that leap, which could be a lifetime of first aid.

Regards Tony

 

[Bird123]

So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

God loves all His children Unconditionally. God will hear all their prayers regardless of their beliefs.

Life is the education of God's children. God will walk all His children to the truth regardless of their beliefs. On the other hand, it will take some many many lifetimes to arrive at the Real Truth.

People can be closed minded with a narrow view. People can insist that their beliefs are reality. People can be hard headed, stubborn and unmoving. People can value petty things that can hurt themselves and others. On the other hand, there is no time limit on learning. Given enough lessons and when all sides are understood, intelligence will make the best choices. Everyone will get there, even wayward believers.

That's what I am seeing. It happens all within our free will. Pretty Remarkable.

 

[PruePhillip]

So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

Must be true. God has spoken.

Only, there was no light, no touch, no paper, no blue.

 

[Left Coast]

Can a universe set itself in motion without space, time, energy, maths or physics?
Put simply, the universe CANNOT CREATE ITSELF. It is created/formed by
forces OUTSIDE of the creation.

You're assuming it was "created," but even if we do so, my question stands. Why assume that whatever "forces" you're talking about are conscious/personal? We're only aware of conscious persons within our universe of space, time, energy, math, and physics.

 

[Deeje]

That much is true, the slippery slope phenomena, but what if God is good but a bit of everything? Like, what if say, Hindus and Christians and Baha'is all worshipped the same God almighty, but that none of the beliefs are wrong, that God is all of these things, both Abrahamic and also being Vishnu, and more?

If God was amenable to all forms of worship, then why is the Bible full of his retaliations against those who practiced them?
It would mean that God is a confuser who cannot tell the truth with any measure of accuracy to anyone.

There is ONLY one 'road to life' according to Jesus, and "few" actually find it. (Matthew 7:13-14) That means that the majority of people are hurtling down a super highway to nowhere.

Those who try to meld all faiths and prophets into one universal melting pot of religions are kidding themselves IMO.

All roads do NOT lead to Rome....it is another destination entirely....

 

[nPeace]

So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

This same situation existed many times, for thousand of years.
One such situation occurred in the first century around mid 30s CE.
(Acts 17:16-31)

What it shows is that God sends. He is always sending, wherever people are. So everyone has opportunity to know the true God.
The Bible says about God... (2 Chronicles 16:9) . . .For, as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him.. . .

So God finds the ones who are sincerely searching for him, and he hears their sincere call for help. He sends help, by means of his earthly servants.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

If God was amenable to all forms of worship, then why is the Bible full of his retaliations against those who practiced them?

Some of those laws were meant for ancient people. The most interesting statement was one from Jesus suggesting that the way to heaven is narrow. My question is, what percentage go to heaven, 5%? 50%? Surely if it's 5%, it says something about that type of God.

The bottom line is, I don't wish to be some 5% in heaven who spends day and night praising God and playing music to him, with no free will.

I guess if that's the reality of it and also the reality of heaven, when I die, I'm fine with just the death.

And even if I could love such a version of God, I would just love Him, I wouldn't be in love with him - can't be in love with someone in which you don't agree with their odd rules for the universe, that are the opposite of rules (or the lack thereof) in the animal kingdom, despite us having evolved from more or less simpler species.

I want a God I can stand behind more than I could a husband or wife. If I can't have that, I don't see the point.

 

[Terese]

So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

Yes, God has many forms! Many personal and impersonal, like the universe. He has mercifully given us many human and human-like forms for us to identify with Narayana's original form is 4 limbed

Yes, God hears our prayers regardless of getting his true nature wrong. After all, he resides in all living things

 

[Deeje]

Some of those laws were meant for ancient people. The most interesting statement was one from Jesus suggesting that the way to heaven is narrow. My question is, what percentage go to heaven, 5%? 50%? Surely if it's 5%, it says something about that type of God.

Did you realize that going to heaven is offered to only a relative few because they will serve in a governmental capacity as "kings and priests" assisting Jesus as the Chief Administrator of that arrangement....? (Revelation 20:6) Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.

The majority of humankind will enjoy the benefits of their rulership right here on earth where God put us in the first place. (Revelation 21:2-4) There was never any intention to send anyone to heaven if God meant for them to live forever on earth....can't you see?

Only when humans disobeyed was there a need for a redeemer....a savior. That is the only reason for Jesus coming to earth to give his life, and to establish the groundwork for a Kingdom that would lead all redeemed humanity back to God. What God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)

The bottom line is, I don't wish to be some 5% in heaven who spends day and night praising God and playing music to him, with no free will.

I guess if that's the reality of it and also the reality of heaven, when I die, I'm fine with just the death.

This always makes me smile...what on earth gave you that picture of life in heaven?

Those taken into the Kingdom will be working hard to serve the earthly servants of God as they are gradually brought back to the perfection of mind and body that God originally made in Eden. Sin will take 1000 years to eliminate, which is why the Kingdom arrangement lasts for a thousand years. After one final test, all humans will then have the opportunity of living the life God meant for them to enjoy.

And even if I could love such a version of God, I would just love Him, I wouldn't be in love with him - can't be in love with someone in which you don't agree with their odd rules for the universe, that are the opposite of rules (or the lack thereof) in the animal kingdom, despite us having evolved from more or less simpler species.

I would like you to elaborate on this if you would.....what does "in love" actually mean here? and what rules are opposite for man and animals that do not already have a clear and obvious explanation?

I want a God I can stand behind more than I could a husband or wife. If I can't have that, I don't see the point.

I worship such a God....would you like me to introduce him to you?....it seems as if you have been very misinformed about a lot of things.....the God you imagine is not one that I could "stand behind" either.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is ONLY one 'road to life' according to Jesus, and "few" actually find it.

I see that would be the via the Holy Spirit, which was the Christ, not the flesh of Jesus, Christ being the first, the last, the beginning, the end, the alpha and omega. That brings us to the narrow gate.

So many many people invoke One God by this Holy Spirit, even if they call it by a different name and some see that One God in many of God's Names, much like picking colours of the rainbow, or various aspects of the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for that clarification.

That makes me wonder, then. What would the Bahai viewpoint be on gods or religions that exist without being revealed from a messenger? There are plenty of indigenous practices that were passed down via stories and myths through oral traditions that evolve through the ages. Native American legends come to mind. Also, Does a holy text require a revelation to be recognized? The Havamal comes to mind, as it was written (or parts of it were written) during the viking age. It could have been written as one text, or altered and changed over the course of 300 years. It was a poem of significance for pagans of the past, and even more for pagans of today. Many modern pagans regard it as a holy text for sure.

We see that many people are capable of attaching to the spirit within, which is the Messengers. As such they can be inspired, but all the while not being aware of the source.

That is why we are to always look for the fruits of the Spirit. That is how we always get to choose what is from God and what is from our own selves.

I see the Australian Aboriginal had a strong foundation in our connection with this earth. The dreamtime is a strong spiritual foundation.

Regards Tony