Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[Alceste]

because true love has nothing to do with sex, like I love my brother, I love my sons, even if one is attracted to a woman it is not love, it is lust, for how can you love a person if you do not know that person. we begin our relationships with lust and if you are Lucky love follow.

Lots of people know each other well and fall in love before they get into romantic relationships. That's true of me and my man, and is also true of my friend who is getting married in the fall and her future wife. I'd argue that if you begin your relationships with lust (assuming you want a life partnership and not a fling), you're doing it wrong.

 

[tumbleweed41]

to tumbleweed
If I can explain this you will have all the answers, Lets say you go to another country there the laws are different,

OK, been there, done that.

the language also is different,

Been there, done that.

even the people race is different;

Yup, been there, done that

so you do have a problem, for how can you obey their laws:

Countries Helps if you do a little research, so as not to break any laws you may not be aware of. It is also a good idea to get to know the local customs so as not to offend inadvertently.

surprise, surprise, you just have to follow your conscience in good faith to be out of troubles, simple; so in other words you are keeping the law without knowing the law, so it is in Christ. is that any clearer.

Surprise, surprise...your argument made no sense whatsoever.

If I have I am not aware of it, no one is perfect we strive to be perfect and God sees that and has mercy on me.

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law"

I condemn sin because I know it to be sin, I never condemn the sinner for I am not the judge. By pointing out sin I am not making any friends so why do that, yes why do you think I do that? No I do not like to be regarded as the proverbial pain in the ........

I see relentless pride.

 

[tumbleweed41]

because true love has nothing to do with sex, like I love my brother, I love my sons, even if one is attracted to a woman it is not love, it is lust, for how can you love a person if you do not know that person. we begin our relationships with lust and if you are Lucky love follow.

What a narrow little world you live in.

:slap:

 

[gzusfrk]

because true love has nothing to do with sex, like I love my brother, I love my sons, even if one is attracted to a woman it is not love, it is lust, for how can you love a person if you do not know that person. we begin our relationships with lust and if you are Lucky love follow.

sometimes this could be true,in my case it is not.

 

[free spirit]

OK, been there, done that.

Been there, done that.
[/size]
Yup, been there, done that

Countries Helps if you do a little research, so as not to break any laws you may not be aware of. It is also a good idea to get to know the local customs so as not to offend inadvertently.

Surprise, surprise...your argument made no sense whatsoever.

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law"

If you break the law, but I am not without the law for I am under the law of Christ.

I see relentless pride.[/quote

]
yes I do love myself, for if I cannot love myself I cannot love my brother.

 

[free spirit]

What a narrow little world you live in.

:slap:

Yes we all are in our little world as long as you happy within it is OK.

 

[free spirit]

What bubble have you been living in???
People fall in love with friends of the opposite sex all the time, with no sexual attraction involved.

Sometimes true love leads to a sexual expression of that love, and then sex has everything to do with love.

Jesus commanded us to reach out in love to the hungry and disenfranchised. When you send relief and aid to people halfway around the world you're reaching out in love. Yet you don't know them...

Right relationships are begun with love -- not lust -- for relationships begin with God, who is love -- not lust.

well then I must be really confused, for my attraction to women has always started with lust. Something wrong with me i am certain now.

 

[free spirit]

Lots of people know each other well and fall in love before they get into romantic relationships. That's true of me and my man, and is also true of my friend who is getting married in the fall and her future wife. I'd argue that if you begin your relationships with lust (assuming you want a life partnership and not a fling), you're doing it wrong.

We cannot fall in and out of love, for if you do, love was never there; but you can fall in lust and out of lust, when I was young I did that all the time.
Love on the other hand does not change, I love my sons, I may not like what they are doing, but my love for them doesn't fade.

 

[tumbleweed41]

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink

The problem being, the stream you led me to, I have tasted before, and it was tainted.

 

[Quagmire]

I see relentless pride.

yes I do love myself, for if I cannot love myself I cannot love my brother.

This attitude is as anti-biblical as you can get. The Gospels and the Epistles almost always represent pride and Love as being diametrically opposed. One example;

1 Corinthians 13:4 (New International Version)

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."


Once again demonstrating that wherever your ideology is coming from, it certainly isn't coming from the Bible.

 

[free spirit]

This attitude is as anti-biblical as you can get. The Gospels and the Epistles almost always represent pride and Love as being diametrically opposed. One example;

1 Corinthians 13:4 (New International Version)

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."


Once again demonstrating that wherever your ideology is coming from, it certainly isn't coming from the Bible.

You have misunderstood my meaning; I love my self but I have no ticked on my self, it is an internal joy.

 

[Riverwolf]

You have misunderstood my meaning; I love my self but I have no ticked on my self, it is an internal joy.

You have no WHAT on yourself?!

I understand what you mean; the concept of loving oneself is taught in most other religions, as well. But maybe you should use proper English instead of broken English, so that you can more effectively communicate your ideas.

 

[free spirit]

You have no WHAT on yourself?!

I understand what you mean; the concept of loving oneself is taught in most other religions, as well. But maybe you should use proper English instead of broken English, so that you can more effectively communicate your ideas.

In Australia having a ticked on yourself means that you approve of yourself arrogantly, a guess it is a local slang, but I am not an expert on the matter for English is my second language.

 

[Riverwolf]

In Australia having a ticked on yourself means that you approve of yourself arrogantly, a guess it is a local slang, but I am not an expert on the matter for English is my second language.

Then I forgive you.

It must be local slang, because I've never heard it before.

 

[strange]

As a non-believer I do not regard the Bible or any other sacred text to be anything other than a product of the minds of men, though I doubt that's any comfort. Even so, I'd like to argue that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality, but it does. In Genesis, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because their people practiced homosexuality, sodomy to be precise, the very word is derived from Sodom.

If you believe what you read without translating and interpreting then you missed what was said in Genesis about Sodomy.



First of Two

Genesis 19:1-20: The Story of Sodom The story is this: two angels (Heb. mal’akim), human-like companions of God, visit Sodom on a reconnoitre to see if the city is as evil as reported, for God has decided to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah unless ten righteous persons are found there (Gen. 18:21-33). They arrive at the city in the evening (without God) and meet Lot who invites them to his house for the night. At first the angels refused the invitation, preferring to spend the night in the square. Lot persists and so they eventually join him for a meal. During this time, a mob of locals gathers at Lot’s house, surrounding it, demanding that the guests be brought out to them so that they "may know them" (Gen. 19:5). Lot is reluctant to hand over the guests. He implores the mob not to act wickedly and offers his two daughters to them to placate them. Lot’s obvious concern is preferential shelter of the guests rather than his daughters. Now the mob gets angry and indignant that Lot, a foreigner (Heb. ger), should make such judgement on them and the house is attacked. The guests inside grab Lot and bring him safely into the house with them and shut the door. "And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they were unable to find the door." (Gen. 19:11) The next day the angels remove Lot and his entire family from Sodom before divine punishment is brought upon it with a rain of sulphur and fire.
Interpretations of the sin of Sodom have varied through the ages. The connotation of homosexual practices with the Sodom story (Genesis 19:1-20) is a late development, in which reference to homosexuality has been read into the original account. (8) Homosexual nuances have assumed popular association with the text of Genesis 19:1-20. However, such nuances are features outside of the text and upon closer examination are not necessarily inferred in the text. This fact is demonstrated where the Bible itself comments upon the sin of Sodom. It is primarily viewed as one of inhospitality and greed, as in Amos 4:11; Isa. 1:9-19, 13:19; Jer. 49:18; Lam. 4:6; Ezek. 16:46, 48-50, 53, 55-56; Zeph. 2:9; Deut. 29:22; 32:32; plus Sir. 16:8; Wis. 19:13-14; Matt. 10:12-13; Luke 10:10-12. The only exception is Ezek. 16:49-50, which reads:
"This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food,
and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did
abominable things before me: therefore I removed them when I saw it."
(Ezek. 16:49-50 NRSV) [SIZE=-1]Back.[/SIZE]
The word that is rendered as 'abominable' (NRSV) or 'abominal' (NIV), is the Hebrew word to'evah ( or to'ebah), meaning 'unclean' or 'uncleanness.' It is the same word used in the Leviticus prohibition of particular same-sex acts (Lev.18:22; 20:13: see discussion below). To interpret the Ezekiel text to be a reference to homosexuality is very dubious exegesis, reading more into the text that it implies. (9) Boswell points out that to'evah, 'unclean', has a connectional nuance with idolatry. (10) The word to'evah certainly has the meaning of ritual uncleanness, in Lev.18:21-22 & 20:13, where the context concerns ritual and ethnic purity, in relation to neighbouring peoples and Jewish distinctiveness. It is clear that the Ezekiel text places emphasis on other sins, such as lack of charity and idolatrous living, rather than inhospitality, and it remains that an association of Sodom with homosexuality is not an inherent feature of biblical applications of the story in Genesis 19.(11) So from where does the homosexual connotation come? What are the grounds for it? Homosexual connotations to the story derive from interpreting yadha', ‘to know’, to mean carnal knowledge. This is a surprising understanding, and a harsh contraction of meaning, for the Hebrew word, yadha', implies carnal knowledge in only ten of the 947 occurrences of the word in Scripture.(12) What is even more surprising, is that the word is commonly taken to imply carnal knowledge of a homosexual kind! If that interpretation is correct, it is the only occurrence of such meaning in the Old Testament. It is not good exegesis to say simply that because yadha' means "to know by sexual intercourse" in ten occurrences of the word in the Bible (each one as a heterosexual act resulting in the conception of a child) that yadha' means same-sex intercourse in the Sodom story.
Source criticism identifies the story of Sodom with the Yahwist redaction and, in other Yahwist texts, yadha' means ‘sexual intercourse’. (13) This meaning is implied where Lot says of his daughters, "they have not known a man" (Gen. 19:8), which is the second occurrence of the word yadha' in the story. This heightens the story by conferring a sexual connotation, albeit of a heterosexual kind. It is this second usage of yadha' that is used to interpret the first as carnal knowledge of a same-sex kind, as it is the only explicitly sexually connotated usage of the word in the text. Further more, the usage comes from the mouth of Lot, who appears to misunderstand the intent of the men of Sodom.



Considering the often cited biblical texts on homosexuality.

 

[strange]

Second of Two.

Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." But they replied, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near the door to break it down. (Gen. 19:6-9)
The interchange between Lot and the men of Sodom makes it clear that the concern was for local dominance and power over the strangers and Lot. The Sodomites sought to establish the identity of the strangers whom Lot has taken into his house. Sodom had recently been engaged in a war (Gen. 14:1-2) and wariness of strangers is understandable. Also, as a resident alien in Sodom, Lot probably had exceeded his rights as a foreigner by offering hospitality to strangers- a customary obligation of the Sodomites. Lot's invitation had usurped the obligation of the Sodomites and the strangers presented a further affront in accepting it. The Sodomites seek after identity of the strangers and challenge them. Are they relatives of Lot's and therefore his primary responsibility to host? They are clearly foreigners who have not allowed the local people to offer hospitality, originally having prepared to spend the night in the city square. Their actions may be the source of affront in that they accepted hospitality from Lot, another foreigner. As a result, the men of Sodom are angry, indignant and challenge the strangers. Lot misunderstands the intent of the mob. That is why Lot’s daughters did not pacify the mob but rather inflamed it, as the mob's xenophobic intent was not met. This underscores the understanding that the men of Sodom intended to gang rape the angels as an act of priapic, male dominance. Phallic aggression towards strangers, with threats of domination and subjugation by the men of Sodom, is the point in the story and the source of their disgrace and not the homoerotic act implied in doing it. (14)
Comments within Scripture reinforce this understanding. In Wisdom 19:13-14, the punishments did not come upon Sodom without prior warning. The people were destroyed because their bitter hatred of strangers and for inhospitality and for enslaving guests who were their benefactors. Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 16:8 comments on the Sodom story, teaching that God did not spare the Sodomites as God abhorred their pride or arrogance. While both these texts are apocryphal to Jewish and Protestant canon, they serve to illustrate that the notion of a "homosexual sin" in relation to the destruction of Sodom was not an interpretation or tradition held at the time of the writing of those texts. Homosexual connotations of the Sodom story were not a part of the more ancient traditions and are clearly a later development that subverts the meaning of the original texts.

It is ironic that in the story of Sodom, God condemns the people for their inhospitality, their insensitive treatment and harassment of others. In applying this text to attack gays and lesbian people today, the very same sin is being perpetuated.

The real story of Sodom involves a mob driven by xenophobia, fear and hatred, confronting a group of persons that they do not know and threatening to humiliate them by rape or intimidation. They highlight the otherness of the strangers, a situation that has sad parallels to gay-bashing today. That the church is engaged in this activity denies its own hospitality for those seeking shelter from the mob.

http://fou.uniting.com.au/texts.html

 

[Alceste]

We cannot fall in and out of love, for if you do, love was never there; but you can fall in lust and out of lust, when I was young I did that all the time.
Love on the other hand does not change, I love my sons, I may not like what they are doing, but my love for them doesn't fade.

Could be that it works differently for some. When I fall in love, I never fall out of it. I would say that if you're not able to distinguish between romantic love and lust, you have not been very deeply in love.

 

[free spirit]

Could be that it works differently for some. When I fall in love, I never fall out of it. I would say that if you're not able to distinguish between romantic love and lust, you have not been very deeply in love.

Romantic love and lust! Sorry but I am not able to tell them apart for both of them lead to one conclusion, which is I scratch your back and you scratch my back if this is seen as love, you are missing the real thing; because men could have sex with any woman for after sun down there is no such thing as an ugly woman, but I felt loved by my woman when I went to get a change of clothes and I found them clean ironed folded and ready for me, in other words she cared for my mundane needs, even after we had an argument, yes also sex is one of my needs, so if I have both, then i have been deeply in love. But I have found that with the passing of time the sex drive diminishes and the caring increases, but that is me.

 

[tumbleweed41]

If you believe what you read without translating and interpreting then you missed what was said in Genesis about Sodomy.

Ezekiel 16
48As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.



Luke 17
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.



I think the sin of Sodom may have been more likely to be it's inhospitable attitude toward strangers, not to mention the pride and arrogance that they felt for themselves.

 

[strange]

Ezekiel 16
48As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.



Luke 17
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.



I think the sin of Sodom may have been more likely to be it's inhospitable attitude toward strangers, not to mention the pride and arrogance that they felt for themselves.

Read my posts #335, 336. I am in agreement with you.