Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[free spirit]

Then you don't even know your own scripture because the biblical Yeshua said and did NO SUCH THING........about "Abolishing" any of the laws but says the exact OPPOSITE of what you'd have us to believe.

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:17 (RSV)
17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The word they use for (Abolish or Destroy) is ...... 2346 kataluo kat-al-oo'-o from 2596 and 3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), i.e. (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specially (compare 2646) to halt for the night:--destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

Now notice...He said he came NOT to do this. What's more important is that he said to follow them and do not teach other to not follow them.


Matthew 5:18,19
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.[/FONT]

Paul does the opposite to what his Messiah commanded. He did this to an unsuspecting crowed who never met or heard the biblical Yeshua speak so they wouldn't have known what Yeshua said or didn't say...and considering Paul never met Yeshua then he's just as unknowledgable as the gentiles. So...again, crhristians pick and choose when it suits them to....

Now either the laws are to be observed, considering he said they should, or they should be considered "aboloshed"......and if they ("ALL") are considered "abolished" then why is it important to pull this particular law out of Leviticus to use as justification for the condemation of gay people but many other laws are ignored...?

Yes I can see your point, you say if the law is abolished what all the fuss is about? maybe the word abolished is not the correct word, because we are still keeping the law, but we keep the law in another manner. Matthew 22: 37 to 40, reads; "And he said to him,'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind,' This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " On these two commandments depend the whole law and the Prophets." So the law of love rules over all other laws. In other words all you need to observe is that one law. And if you think that it easy without the guidance of the Holy Spirit think again.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Tumbleweed, it looks to me like you're falling into the "everything in the Bible has to be the literal and infallible word of God" trap. Like I said earlier, most Christians don't believe that.

Do you think there's something wrong with taking the good parts to heart ("love your neighbour") and leaving the nonsense at the curb? ("and for every four transgressions involving the leaving of clipped toenails upon the sitting room coffee table, though shalt bring three unblemished doves, short of beak and dull of claw, and though shalt burn it medium rare upon the altar, and thou shalt sprinkle it with parsley and oregano, and the priests shall eat of this meat, because it is holy, and any man who eat of this meat that is for the priests shall be cursed and turned away from his people...")

I mean, there's some pretty good stuff in there, buried in among the stuff that was clearly written by hungry priests. The Christians who mine that godawful tome for the good stuff - rather than harping on and on about the garbage - are the ones we like, remember?

No, I agree with you that there are very good lessons to be learned from the Bible.
However, if one picks and chooses what LAWS or RULES are to be followed, especially by interpreting a law or rule or verse to repress the rights of others, then it must be pointed out that the hypocrisy of their actions are counter to literalistic interpretations they claim to endorse.

 

[Beaudreaux]

There are so many sins mentioned in the bible that God condemns but yet again this one is the main focus globally, why not focus on the others and "shake sticks" at people who commit those?

Or, and this is just a thought, we could leave them all alone as long as they're not hurting anyone else.....

 

[tumbleweed41]

Or, and this is just a thought, we could leave them all alone as long as they're not hurting anyone else.....

May His Noodlyness bless you for your wisdom.:bow:

 

[Alceste]

No, I agree with you that there are very good lessons to be learned from the Bible.
However, if one picks and chooses what LAWS or RULES are to be followed, especially by interpreting a law or rule or verse to repress the rights of others, then it must be pointed out that the hypocrisy of their actions are counter to literalistic interpretations they claim to endorse.

I don't mind if somebody wants to love his neighbours because it's a law,or a rule.

I think, though, unless I missed something, fs is not actually using the Bible to justify his feelings about homosexuality, and believes everyone is entitled to full equal rights as long as gay people don't call their relationships "marriage".

Which is a pretty soft / inoffensive / "loving" position for a Christian fundamentalist to take, particularly one whose entire perception of homosexuality appears to have been shaped by a single unfortunate and disturbing encounter on a bus.

None of my gay friends care in the slightest whether Christian fundamentalists feel icky about homosexuality, or think it's unnatural. It's the lobby to deny them equal rights under the law that they object to. If it turned out that a same sex partnership was legally defined by some other word but there was no difference in rights, I expect that would be good enough for them, although it would be unnecessarily complicated to have two sets of laws for the same thing. My friends would still use the words "marriage, wife, husband, engaged, wedding, family, etc." because there aren't any other words for these things. But, the fundies would be happy because they think it's something else, and my gay friends would be happy because it's not.

 

[tumbleweed41]

But a separate "word"? So as not to "offend"?
Sounds like the old "separate, but equal" policy that was used to keep the "Colored" from offending the sensibilities of the whites.

As for FS...

Is not a matter of picking and choosing, but at the moment no one is proposing that murder is not a sin.

Jesus abolished all commandments, and replaced them with one commandment; "You shall love God and your neighbor as yourself"
love does not harm a neighbor therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
If that is hypocrisy I do not know what righteousnesses is.

Love is the fulfillment of the law, therefore love surpasses the righteousness of the pharisees.:foot::foot::foot:

I don't think you understand what it mean to love your neighbor;
you see love is the character of God, carnal men has only a shadow of that love, when we receive the Holy Spirit He teaches us the unselfish love, and with that love we are able to fulfill the law. So the law doesn't get abolished but established in our hearts. In other words we became Christ like in character.

FS is equating the LAWS of the OT with the LOVE of Jesus, thus trying to establish that to live in Jesus is to follow the LAWS. But what LAWS? Why are some to be followed but others not? When Jesus himself said that none of the LAWS are abolished?

 

[Enlighten]

Or, and this is just a thought, we could leave them all alone as long as they're not hurting anyone else.....

:yes: exactly! I say it again, who are we to judge?!

 

[free spirit]

FS is equating the LAWS of the OT with the LOVE of Jesus, thus trying to establish that to live in Jesus is to follow the LAWS. But what LAWS? Why are some to be followed but others not? When Jesus himself said that none of the LAWS are abolished?

Obviously I am unable to to explain what is in my heart, so Let the word of God Speak; we read in Hebrews 8: 6 to 13, "But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, he says, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their heart. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, know the Lord, for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
For i will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
When he said, "A new covenant," he has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
As you can see we are no longer under a law written on a book some were, for we live under the law written in our hearts, for we read in John 1: 17, "For the law was given through Moses grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."
We all know what the law is, but do we all understand what grace and truth is?

 

[tumbleweed41]

As you can see we are no longer under a law written on a book some were, for we live under the law written in our hearts, for we read in John 1: 17, "For the law was given through Moses grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."
We all know what the law is, but do we all understand what grace and truth is?

So... according to what you wrote, Christians are no longer under the the rule of the commandments and laws of the OT.
Christians are instead to love God, and love one another. Correct?

(Although I find this contradicts what Jesus said earlier, I will accept your interpretation of the author of Hebrews)

 

[free spirit]

So... according to what you wrote, Christians are no longer under the the rule of the commandments and laws of the OT.
Christians are instead to love God, and love one another. Correct?

(Although I find this contradicts what Jesus said earlier, I will accept your interpretation of the author of Hebrews)

Glory to God
Yes, you have understood correctly.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Glory to God
Yes, you have understood correctly.

So then....
What is the problem with homosexuality?

 

[free spirit]

So then....
What is the problem with homosexuality?

As it is written, he as put his laws in our hearts, so I do not have to tell you what is right and what is wrong, for he said that all shall know him.
Only if I see that you are in error then I can give you respectfully the consul of my love, which is at my on peril, because there is a possibility that what I might say offends you; for no one likes to be corrected in what they approve. but after I have done that and suffered the consequences there is nothing else I can do, but stand back and wonder at their unbelief.

 

[tumbleweed41]

As it is written, he as put his laws in our hearts, so I do not have to tell you what is right and what is wrong, for he said that all shall know him.
Only if I see that you are in error then I can give you respectfully the consul of my love, which is at my on peril, because there is a possibility that what I might say offends you; for no one likes to be corrected in what they approve. but after I have done that and suffered the consequences there is nothing else I can do, but stand back and wonder at their unbelief.

Very eloquent non-answer.

 

[free spirit]

Very eloquent non-answer.

Ho! yes there is an answer, but it is already within each one of us, for God puts all of his laws in our heart.
I have chosen to cultivate God's law, that is why they are clear to me, but if God's laws are not cultivated they gets choked by weeds, and the righteousness of God's law become no longer distinguishable.

 

[Alceste]

Ho! yes there is an answer, but it is already within each one of us, for God puts all of his laws in our heart.
I have chosen to cultivate God's law, that is why they are clear to me, but if God's laws are not cultivated they gets choked by weeds, and the righteousness of God's law become no longer distinguishable.

Let me ask you this: Do you think it's possible for God to write on my heart "Love is good", and to write on your heart "All love except romantic love between two people of the same sex is good"? Or do you believe God writes the exact same thing on everybody's heart?

If I were God, I would tailor the message to suit the receiver.

 

[free spirit]

Let me ask you this: Do you think it's possible for God to write on my heart "Love is good", and to write on your heart "All love except romantic love between two people of the same sex is good"? Or do you believe God writes the exact same thing on everybody's heart?

If I were God, I would tailor the message to suit the receiver.

You are confusing Love With lust, For we read in 1 Corinthians 13: 4 to 6, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong-suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. As you can see romantic love of any type is not agape love, in other words the love that counts is unselfish love, or sacrificial love. because if your partner stops pleasing you, you soon find another partner, or being attracted to a good looking or charismatic person is not love, actually true love attracts you to the
less fortunate in your society.

 

[Alceste]

You are confusing Love With lust, For we read in 1 Corinthians 13: 4 to 6, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong-suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. As you can see romantic love of any type is not agape love, in other words the love that counts is unselfish love, or sacrificial love. because if your partner stops pleasing you, you soon find another partner, or being attracted to a good looking or charismatic person is not love, actually true love attracts you to the
less fortunate in your society.

It's not as if we have to pick one or the other, fs. When your heart is open you have room for every kind of love.

 

[Riverwolf]

You are confusing Love With lust, For we read in 1 Corinthians 13: 4 to 6, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong-suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth.

And many, if not most, homosexual couples have this kind of love.

 

[Katzpur]

Anyway I would be interested to know what both christians and non-christians think about this dilema (well to me it is a dilema), does this mean that I am sinning as I'm not opposing my family members? As you will gather, although I have been thinking about it long and hard, I still havent drawn my conclusion yet as I dont feel it is my place to judge someone because of their sexuality as I am not judged on mine (well not that I know of).

I'm not sure how relevant my comment is to your dilemma, but I'll share it anyway. Years ago, I had a friend whose daughter was living with her boyfriend. Because we are both LDS, and share the belief that sex outside of marriage is wrong, she confided in me how terrible she felt that her daughter was "living in sin." Even though I could relate to how she was feeling, I just more or less blurted out the first thing that came to my mind. I said, "Pat, we're all living in sin." I guess that was exactly what she needed to hear. I didn't give it a second thought, but she mentioned to me years later how much that eased her mind. I am now in pretty much the same situation she was in a number of years ago. My daughter is now "living in sin." I have to remind myself all the time what I told my friend. We're all living in sin. When we acknowledge that, it's easier to be forgiving of other people whose sins we perceive to be worse than ours. You don't have to change how you personally feel about gay or lesbian sex. You can believe that it's wrong if that's what you believe the Bible is saying. The Bible also says that we are not to judge others, but to leave the judging to God. Our relationships with our family members are SOOOOO important. We need to work hard to keep them strong. You can love your family members just as they are. That's your job. Your job is not to judge, condemn or condone.

 

[Muffled]

Let him speak for himself. I don't need and interpreter to interpret what someone else is interpreting from what they're reading about some one else who interpreted those scriptures. it complicates matters.



And where in your four gospels did your Yeshua say this or even hint to this? Your Yeshua says the exact opposite from what you and your Paul are preaching.

Matthew 5:17-19
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Really.......!!!!......This is what he supposedly said.......Now you'd have us to believe that the laws of old don't apply when your own Messiah says they do....EVERY little one of them.[/FONT]





[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Complete conjecture......by you and the self appointed "apostle" Paul/Saul........Either way...picking and choosing what laws to follow is not something your own Messiah condoned.[/FONT]

Jesus fulfills the law. The requirements of the law have been met in Him and now in us also becuase Jesus is in us.