Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[free spirit]

Swearing and cursing is a waste of breath, and anyway is worthless these days. Lying can and does do harm. Suicide is cowardly. Adultery is a form of lying, unless there is full disclosure and consent. Bestiality is simply a tendency that some people have, and DOES often do harm to the animal.

You are so kind to the animal, it is a pity that the human conscience does not concern you.

 

[Riverwolf]

You are so kind to the animal, it is a pity that the human conscience does not concern you.

You make an incorrect assumption. I do feel it is important to listen to my conscience. HOWEVER, I also understand that we all have a different definition as to what that conscience tells us, and we MUST be able to distinguish between what our conscience is telling us verses what fear and discomfort is telling us. Often, the two can be very hard to distinguish.

A good way to distinguish the two is to figure out whether or not you feel that something is wrong yourself, verses whether or not you're afraid someone else thinks something is wrong.

 

[maximus-Aurelius]

Love the sinner not the sin.
Jesus did not have to talk about Homo's, because Israelite should have been educated by their parents, so they should have known what we call the old testament, were it said no male should lay with another male.

 

[free spirit]

You make an incorrect assumption. I do feel it is important to listen to my conscience. HOWEVER, I also understand that we all have a different definition as to what that conscience tells us, and we MUST be able to distinguish between what our conscience is telling us verses what fear and discomfort is telling us. Often, the two can be very hard to distinguish.

A good way to distinguish the two is to figure out whether or not you feel that something is wrong yourself, verses whether or not you're afraid someone else thinks something is wrong.

Yes you are correct our conscience are different, to the extent and degree to which our conscience is alive to the holiness of God, in other words there are people that won't think twice to kill a man, or rob a old pensioner, or whatever; because their have no conscience, obviously their conscience is dead, and now nothing is sin to them, or at list that sin which they practice; they are guided mainly by the legality of their actions.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes you are correct our conscience are different, to the extent and degree to which our conscience is alive to the holiness of God, in other words there are people that won't think twice to kill a man, or rob a old pensioner, or whatever; because their have no conscience, obviously their conscience is dead, and now nothing is sin to them, or at list that sin which they practice; they are guided mainly by the legality of their actions.

Indeed, as with everything, sinning is easier the more you do it.

But homosexuality does not fall under my definition of "sin" because it is not harmful to anyone. Your own situation was not due to homosexuality, but someone else's low self-esteem and desire for power.

 

[free spirit]

Indeed, as with everything, sinning is easier the more you do it.

But homosexuality does not fall under my definition of "sin" because it is not harmful to anyone. Your own situation was not due to homosexuality, but someone else's low self-esteem and desire for power.

Ho! I have learned to speak in general terms, therefore I do not refer specifically to my self or to any other, so generally speaking the homosexual act is a sin, then is up to the individual to examine his conscience. But in the end God does not take into account if it was legal or not, he sets the rules, for he is not a democratic entity but a benevolent dictator.

 

[Riverwolf]

Ho! I have learned to speak in general terms, therefore I do not refer specifically to my self or to any other, so generally speaking the homosexual act is a sin, then is up to the individual to examine his conscience. But in the end God does not take into account if it was legal or not, he sets the rules, for he is not a democratic entity but a benevolent dictator.

And speaking in general terms is not a good idea, since very little is general with regards to humanity.

And how is homosexuality harmful, anyway? If anything, I see it as a very useful method for population control.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Is not a matter of picking and choosing, but at the moment no one is proposing that murder is not a sin.

Yet you haven't refuted the commandment of your own Messiah. Where in statement did he distinguish what laws to follow and which ones not to? He didn't. He specifically said they all were to be observed and if you taught otherwise you'd not receive God's blessings.

Look, I didn't say it....he said it and it is without a doubt you pick and choose. That's hypocrisy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Love the sinner not the sin.
Jesus did not have to talk about Homo's, because Israelite should have been educated by their parents, so they should have known what we call the old testament, were it said no male should lay with another male.

But Jesus was okay with the lesbians, right?

 

[starlite]

Indeed, as with everything, sinning is easier the more you do it.

But homosexuality does not fall under my definition of "sin" because it is not harmful to anyone. Your own situation was not due to homosexuality, but someone else's low self-esteem and desire for power.

1 Corinthians 6:18 tells how you can sin against your own body.....interesting huh?

 

[Riverwolf]

1 Corinthians 6:18 tells how you can sin against your own body.....interesting huh?

Not particularly.

""Keep away from sexual immorality. All other sins that someone may commit are done outside the body; but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not realize that you body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you and whom you received from God? You are not your own property, then; you have been bought at a price. So use your body for the glory of God." (I Cor. 6:18-20)

I'd say doing drugs, smoking, excessive-drinking, etc. are greater sins against the body, as they actually do harm. Sexual irresponsibility can do harm as well, but that applies to anyone who does not practice safe sex, and not a specific sexual act.

Therefore homosexual sex is only "immoral" if it is irresponsible, just like heterosexual sex.

 

[free spirit]

Yet you haven't refuted the commandment of your own Messiah. Where in statement did he distinguish what laws to follow and which ones not to? He didn't. He specifically said they all were to be observed and if you taught otherwise you'd not receive God's blessings.

Look, I didn't say it....he said it and it is without a doubt you pick and choose. That's hypocrisy.

Jesus abolished all commandments, and replaced them with one commandment; "You shall love God and your neighbor as yourself"
love does not harm a neighbor therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
If that is hypocrisy I do not know what righteousnesses is.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Jesus abolished all commandments, and replaced them with one commandment; "You shall love God and your neighbor as yourself"
love does not harm a neighbor therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
If that is hypocrisy I do not know what righteousnesses is.

Matt 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Ooops:foot:

 

[free spirit]

And speaking in general terms is not a good idea, since very little is general with regards to humanity.

And how is homosexuality harmful, anyway? If anything, I see it as a very useful method for population control.

If you have a fully living conscience then you are in the light of God, for you would know right from wrong.
But if your conscience is dead then no one will be able to revive it.
but if your conscience is wounded then the Lord can heal it.
My compelling desire is to tell you about the healer the rest is up to you.

 

[free spirit]

Matt 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Ooops:foot:

By your own believe: "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
Love is the fulfillment of the law, therefore love surpasses the righteousness of the pharisees.:foot::foot::foot:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus abolished all commandments, and replaced them with one commandment; "You shall love God and your neighbor as yourself"
love does not harm a neighbor therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
If that is hypocrisy I do not know what righteousnesses is.

Then you don't even know your own scripture because the biblical Yeshua said and did NO SUCH THING........about "Abolishing" any of the laws but says the exact OPPOSITE of what you'd have us to believe.

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:17 (RSV)
17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The word they use for (Abolish or Destroy) is ...... 2346 kataluo kat-al-oo'-o from 2596 and 3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), i.e. (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specially (compare 2646) to halt for the night:--destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

Now notice...He said he came NOT to do this. What's more important is that he said to follow them and do not teach other to not follow them.


Matthew 5:18,19
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.

19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.[/FONT]

Paul does the opposite to what his Messiah commanded. He did this to an unsuspecting crowed who never met or heard the biblical Yeshua speak so they wouldn't have known what Yeshua said or didn't say...and considering Paul never met Yeshua then he's just as unknowledgable as the gentiles. So...again, crhristians pick and choose when it suits them to....

Now either the laws are to be observed, considering he said they should, or they should be considered "aboloshed"......and if they ("ALL") are considered "abolished" then why is it important to pull this particular law out of Leviticus to use as justification for the condemation of gay people but many other laws are ignored...?

 

[Riverwolf]

If you have a fully living conscience then you are in the light of God, for you would know right from wrong.
But if your conscience is dead then no one will be able to revive it.
but if your conscience is wounded then the Lord can heal it.
My compelling desire is to tell you about the healer the rest is up to you.

That is not an answer to the question. I see NOTHING wrong with homosexuality. In terms of spiritual growth, celibacy from all material objects, pleasures, and pains is necessary for the highest spiritual enlightenment, but such enlightenment is NOT the only way to get to God.

My conscience is still intact, and very definite. You've given me no reason to think or feel otherwise.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Love is the fulfillment of the law, therefore love surpasses the righteousness of the pharisees.:foot::foot::foot:

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,

FS, you need to learn the teachings of your Messiah.

 

[Alceste]

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,

FS, you need to learn the teachings of your Messiah.

Tumbleweed, it looks to me like you're falling into the "everything in the Bible has to be the literal and infallible word of God" trap. Like I said earlier, most Christians don't believe that.

Do you think there's something wrong with taking the good parts to heart ("love your neighbour") and leaving the nonsense at the curb? ("and for every four transgressions involving the leaving of clipped toenails upon the sitting room coffee table, though shalt bring three unblemished doves, short of beak and dull of claw, and though shalt burn it medium rare upon the altar, and thou shalt sprinkle it with parsley and oregano, and the priests shall eat of this meat, because it is holy, and any man who eat of this meat that is for the priests shall be cursed and turned away from his people...")

I mean, there's some pretty good stuff in there, buried in among the stuff that was clearly written by hungry priests. The Christians who mine that godawful tome for the good stuff - rather than harping on and on about the garbage - are the ones we like, remember?

 

[free spirit]

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,

FS, you need to learn the teachings of your Messiah.

I don't think you understand what it mean to love your neighbor;
you see love is the character of God, carnal men has only a shadow of that love, when we receive the Holy Spirit He teaches us the unselfish love, and with that love we are able to fulfill the law. So the law doesn't get abolished but established in our hearts. In other words we became Christ like in character.