Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[starlite]

... or without thought as to what the author would've meant by the word "scripture".

What is "scripture" in your opinion?

 

[starlite]

With over 200 posts in the thread I am supposed to guess which one the verses are allegedly relevant to?
Not likely.

Especially given the way verses are abused on this forum by those who are supposedly most versed in their use.

I suppose I felt it was a general scripture that had application to most of the posts. Basically that "all" scripture is beneficial....for those who believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that it is a guide for successful daily living.

 

[McBell]

I suppose I felt it was a general scripture that had application to most of the posts. Basically that "all" scripture is beneficial....for those who believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that it is a guide for successful daily living.

And that in no way helps the discussion.
Why?
Because you are making a far to general statement about... well, nothing.

 

[Alceste]

I did think it was interesting how "by inspiration of God" got translated to "by God" in the dumbed down version of the Bible. My guess at the author of that verse is talking about writing in general. At the time those texts were written it would have been a very rare and arcane skill. And as a writer myself, I can affirm that's exactly how it feels. You're sitting around minding your own business, clipping your toenails or something, when suddenly POW! You are in possession of an entire, brand new narrative, beginning, middle and end that you feel communicates something fundamental about the human condition. I don't question where they come from, but if I believed in some ineffable consciousness, I'd probably think it came from that. They certainly don't come from me.

My theory is that it only feels like they don't come from "me" because there is no such thing as "me". Nevertheless, that's exactly where they come from. (I'm sure that makes sense to nobody but Zenzero. )

 

[fanofchiefs]

Yes and this is where I am struggling, why am I being asked to disagree with someones sexuality? When infact I dont see anything wrong with it.

Leviticus 20:13
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

 

[fanofchiefs]

Sorry I probably should have explained, I actually am being asked to do that by some members of my church who sat me down and gave me a "talking to" but when I defended myself by asking for proof all I was told is that I will be judged, this I dont agree with, how can I be judged by not judging others? So after church the only thing I found in the bible was Romans 1, but I feel like I may be mis-interpreting due to what I have been told.

Romans 1:26,27

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

How can this be misinterpreted?

 

[Enlighten]

Romans 1:26,27

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

How can this be misinterpreted?

So from this you see that I should abandon my family members? I think not! Hence asking if I was mis-interpreting something along the way, but I see now that I am not, and I am very aware of the sins the bible speaks of but I have also become very aware that there are so many people that think they have the right to judge. In a previous post of mine you will see that I have said that there is only One who can and will judge us all so why bicker about it in the meantime.

There are so many sins mentioned in the bible that God condemns but yet again this one is the main focus globally, why not focus on the others and "shake sticks" at people who commit those?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is "scripture" in your opinion?

I imagine it means different things to different people, but I'm fairly certain that whoever wrote 1 Timothy, his definition of "scripture" probably wouldn't have included books he had never read, and certainly wouldn't have included books that hadn't been written when he wrote his.

And I think it's completely unreasonable for us to take his intended meaning of "scripture" as "those books, and only those books, that will be deemed canonical by the Synod of Hippo several centuries after I'm dead."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Romans 1:26,27

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

How can this be misinterpreted?

It's probably as easy to misinterpret as these passages:

Colossians 2:20-23

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

[...]

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[Alceste]

Leviticus 20:13
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

You speak like someone who is oblivious to the fact Leviticus is chiefly concerned with what type of burnt animal sacrifices are most pleasing to God, what kind of diet is acceptable, and how to diagnose and "treat" leprosy ("And the priest shall see the raw flesh, and pronounce him to be unclean"). There's a lot more about the rules regarding menstruation (all of which are ignored by all Christians today) than there is about "gay". If you'd actually read the Bible, you'd know this.

Here's a few more gems from Leviticus for your random, out-of-context quote collection:

22And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
23Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat.
26Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, (whoops! There goes the traditional Irish breakfast!) whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.
27Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
6And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people
9Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die (sorry, Catholics - blood of Christ is off the menu): it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you (whoops, no more clam chowder - it's an "abomination".)
19And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days (I, for one, would be TOTALLY cool with that. Beats working.)

Look, I don't blame you for not having read Leviticus. It's staggeringly dull, and utterly irrelevant in this day and age - but you should get to know your bible before you start burbling out-of-context quotes that you feel prove there is a divine excuse for your personal bigotry.

In other words, read the book before you start quoting from it. Otherwise you risk making an *** of yourself.

 

[fanofchiefs]

In a previous post of mine you will see that I have said that there is only One who can and will judge us all so why bicker about it in the meantime.

There are so many sins mentioned in the bible that God condemns but yet again this one is the main focus globally, why not focus on the others and "shake sticks" at people who commit those?

You started the thread on homosexuality, that's why we're talking about it. Start a thread on each of the sins named in the Bible and we'll talk about them. You can't start a thread on a specific subject and complain that it's the main subject of the thread.

 

[Alceste]

You started the thread on homosexuality, that's why we're talking about it. Start a thread on each of the sins named in the Bible and we'll talk about them. You can't start a thread on a specific subject and complain that it's the main subject of the thread.

An integral part of this discussion, though, has been the question of WHY homosexuality gets so much attention, as opposed to the endless list of Old Testament transgressions (shaving, for example) - most of which are also punishable by death, plague, or shunning, and many of which get way more airtime than "gay" in the Bible.

 

[Riverwolf]

In other words, read the book before you start quoting from it. Otherwise you risk making an *** of yourself.

And I'd like to add to this: reading the book is not the same as reading the words from start to finish. It means contemplating each verse, paragraph, and chapter as they come, and thinking about what they mean in terms of literary and historical context.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

An integral part of this discussion, though, has been the question of WHY homosexuality gets so much attention, as opposed to the endless list of Old Testament transgressions (shaving, for example) - most of which are also punishable by death, plague, or shunning, and many of which get way more airtime than "gay" in the Bible.

A question we all know the answer to.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

My question is....Why is that (homosexuality) a big deal?....Aren't there like 600 plus commandments in the OT????....the majority of which christians don't follow anyway...that has something to supposedly doing with their christ dying for their sins and fulfilling the law.....???

Why does it seem to be that people pick and choose which of the OT laws they will observe?....Is it because it meets their specific agenda at the time?

I mean, what about the dietary laws on eating pork and shell fish?...and any other of the supposed laws their god gave them through their prophets and messengers???

I smell hypocrisy.....

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I smell hypocrisy.....

Heck, you'd have to be hard-of-smelling to not recoil from the overwhelming stench.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Heck, you'd have to be hard-of-smelling to not recoil from the overwhelming stench.

:tsk:...uhhhhh...ennnnnnnn......Oh no u didn't....just go there....?!:biglaugh:

But I totally agree.

 

[fanofchiefs]

My question is....Why is that (homosexuality) a big deal?....Aren't there like 600 plus commandments in the OT????....the majority of which christians don't follow anyway...that has something to supposedly doing with their christ dying for their sins and fulfilling the law.....???

Why does it seem to be that people pick and choose which of the OT laws they will observe?....Is it because it meets their specific agenda at the time?

I mean, what about the dietary laws on eating pork and shell fish?...and any other of the supposed laws their god gave them through their prophets and messengers???

I smell hypocrisy.....

Colossians 2: 6-23


Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

******

The "ceremonial law" contains God's particular and time-bound directives on how he wanted to be worshiped by Old Testament Israel. The New Testament names several of these directives and tells us specifically that they do not apply to Christians. These include the sacrificial system (Hebrews 10:11-18), the festival calendar including the Sabbath (Galatians 4:9-11, Colossians 2:16-17), the dietary laws (Colossians 2:16-17), and the law of circumcision (Galatians 5:2-6).

 

[Enlighten]

Colossians 2: 6-23


Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

******

The "ceremonial law" contains God's particular and time-bound directives on how he wanted to be worshiped by Old Testament Israel. The New Testament names several of these directives and tells us specifically that they do not apply to Christians. These include the sacrificial system (Hebrews 10:11-18), the festival calendar including the Sabbath (Galatians 4:9-11, Colossians 2:16-17), the dietary laws (Colossians 2:16-17), and the law of circumcision (Galatians 5:2-6).

okay, but I still dont feel that you have (or anyone else for that matter have answered a question that has been raised many times in this thread, by myself and others.) Why is it that in todays society that all focus is on homosexuality being the ULTIMATE sin and not the many others that are in the bible, which are commited daily?

or to put it another way:
"Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin
My question is....Why is that (homosexuality) a big deal?....Aren't there like 600 plus commandments in the OT????....the majority of which christians don't follow anyway...that has something to supposedly doing with their christ dying for their sins and fulfilling the law.....???

Why does it seem to be that people pick and choose which of the OT laws they will observe?....Is it because it meets their specific agenda at the time?

I mean, what about the dietary laws on eating pork and shell fish?...and any other of the supposed laws their god gave them through their prophets and messengers???

I smell hypocrisy.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

okay, but I still dont feel that you have (or anyone else for that matter have answered a question that has been raised many times in this thread, by myself and others.) Why is it that in todays society that all focus is on homosexuality being the ULTIMATE sin and not the many others that are in the bible, which are commited daily?

IMO, it's because the focus on homosexuality is based on personal prejudices, not a genuine desire to follow what they feel is God's will. They don't look to the Bible to guide their actions, they look to it to provide excuses for actions they've already decided upon.