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Struggling with western Buddhism

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Would you say Buddhism is dying? It most certainly is in Japan. As the southern Asian nations grow more wealthy and less poor, it will start to fade out there as well.
I wouldn't say it's dying, but it is changing. This has happened before. Some lineages gradually die out, while others are revitalized. The Dharma dwindles in some countries while taking root in others.

A lot of groups are making a concerted effort to spread the Dharma in the West because they know how important it is to its survival in the long run. In the short term there's going to be a lot of confusion and misunderstanding, but the same thing happened over the first couple of centuries in China, which then became a bastion of Buddhist learning and practice for more than a millennium. Many Western Buddhists are still in that transitional stage, but it's not hopeless. As for East Asia, there's still hope. Buddhism has dwindled and then been revitalized a number of times over the centuries.

Taiwan is a good example of a wealthy country where Buddhism is experiencing a healthy growth period. In most countries where it's not, government repression is usually the cause. I'd say the decline of Buddhism in Japan is due to the fractured state of the religion at the start of the modern period, which was the result of a particularly effective form of state repression. They're free now, but they never quite recovered from that, which is why Buddhism wasn't able to respond effectively to the sudden onrush of corporate capitalism and consumer society, which leaves a lot of people focusing on superficial things and thinking they don't need religion. In Korea and China there's recent history of active state repression. In S Korea Buddhism is still pretty healthy for having been actively repressed during the last dynasty. It's still the majority religious culture, though it's lost a lot of ground to Christian converts who are often actively hostile to it. Buddhism survived the Cultural Revolution in China, which is no small feat, and it will probably recover in time and as the state loosens its grip further. N Korea, who knows?
 

Mequa

Neo-Epicurean
The issue with Sanghas, or social groups in general, is that (in my own experience at least) - to give a very crass analogy - there only needs to be one turd in a punchbowl for the punch to be rendered quite undrinkable.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaste Dorothy

I am sad to hear that you have not had the experience you had hoped for , ....I can understand your feelings and I must admit for many years I had mused on this subject , ...personaly I find Buddhism in the west bare very little resemblance to the Buddhism that I read (and loved) for many years before attending a center .
when I attended the center I came to realise that yes there were those who needed to belong to some kind of social group and Buddhism just seemed Cool !, so unfortunatly there was a lot of self obsession ,....but there were also some who were genuinely working with them selves and trying to overcome western conditioning. ....(not an easy thing to do !)
we are all at individual levels and have our own obsticals to overcome, and that is the path that we should be walking together , with compassion and with acceptance , ......but on the other hand if one is sarrounded by unsupportive sangha there is no true refuge , ....we are after all supposed to take refuge in Buddha Dharma and Sangha .
it is supposed to be a suportive and inspiring spiritual comunity .

to me an important part of what the Buddha taught , was middle way , ...finding ballance in everything . everything one does and everything one thinks , ....Ballancing ones needs with the needs of others , ...centering less on the self and understanding ones commonality with others , ...and yes to me Compassion is a very important part of Buddhist practice , but that dosent nececarily have to take place in the temple , one can take that compassion out into the comunity and work with it any where , Buddhist practice will just help you where ever you are , and in what ever you are doing .

Eventualy I left my comunity because I wasnt happy with the clique'iness or with the or the expectations by some that we should hold sectarian veiw points ! ... and the you are nobody Attitude that some held towards those that could'nt afford to keep on dishing out large ammounts on money for all the retreats .
this is a mistake that happens frequently in the west because in the majority of cases it is the relitively affluent and relitively well educated that take to Buddhism , this also accounts for the fact that many over interlectualise Dharma and treat it as a phylosopical doctrine rather than a practice . ...and unfortunatly this also accounts for what I see as a slightly weird distortion of Buddha Dharma , and the insistance in the west to cross refference many texts with qoutes from 19th and early 20th century western philosophers , ....who them selves over interlectualised Buddhist Dharma and have conditioned us to do likewise .

where as to me Buddhist pactice is more about simplification and non attatchment , ..and it is 'Oh so easy' to fall into the trap of attatching to an Idea about Buddhism which is actualy some what of a contradiction , ....being non attatched dosent mean caring less about others , or caring more , ....it just means being mindfull and and sympathetic in understanding the problems that others are facing .

when you say you see the ignorance in others behavior I can understand what you are saying and it is not nececarily ego driven , one can recognise blindness in others because one understands blindness from first hand experience , ..to understand others we have to first understand ourselves , ...this is the true root of compassion , and prehaps the answer is to look compassionatly on others and on their failings , ...unfortunatly where ever we go we will find some kind of contradiction or problem so the trick with groups and temples is to know that there will allways be some shortcomings and as long as there are more benificial aspects then one should just accept and over look these things , ..but if they outnumber the positive aspects , ...then it is best not to stay .

but I like this approach , ....find some where that you like for its good aspects then start up a group with in to do some form of seva , some outreach work helping others less fortunate than oneself , even just bringing joy into others life , Buddhism at its best is joyfull and caring .
 

Osal

Active Member
Someone may have suggested this or you have tried it yourself: Do not try to find a sangha that fits perfectly, just one that is generally tolerable. If they have no service component, then advocate for one.

Sometimes you need a little friction.

Theres the old story about Atisha and his Bengali teaboy. The teaboy was irritating and disagreeable. When Atisha was invited to Tibet, he learned that Tibetan people were really nice, so Atisha brought the teaboy on the journey to aid him in his practice and compassion.
 
Finally talked to the abbot at my local zen center. I had a private discussion about something ailing me, and how to respond to it. Her answers were...unsatisfactory. I brought up what the Dalai Lama said on the subject because she wasn't offering any actual opinion or counsel, and she said,"then do that" after I told her. She didn't really offer her own opinion much and it felt impersonal because anyone can see what the HHDL thinks on a subject, but I wanted HER advice and counsel. It was as if she wasn't listening to me and wanted to leave.

Now, I really respect this woman. She taught me how to meditate. But none of her answers weren't exactly anything I couldn't come up with. Depending on how this talk went, I was going to stick with Soto Zen. Instead it pushed me further away. I love how she took time out of her day to talk to me, but if she can offer such answers to the base of questions, how valuable a teacher will she be when I really need it?

I'll keep visiting but I'm officially looking for an alternative. Looks like I'm going to a Ch'an Temple this weekend.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Sometimes you need a little friction.

Theres the old story about Atisha and his Bengali teaboy. The teaboy was irritating and disagreeable. When Atisha was invited to Tibet, he learned that Tibetan people were really nice, so Atisha brought the teaboy on the journey to aid him in his practice and compassion.
Full Buddhism. Including tea.
Finally talked to the abbot at my local zen center. I had a private discussion about something ailing me, and how to respond to it. Her answers were...unsatisfactory. I brought up what the Dalai Lama said on the subject because she wasn't offering any actual opinion or counsel, and she said,"then do that" after I told her. She didn't really offer her own opinion much and it felt impersonal because anyone can see what the HHDL thinks on a subject, but I wanted HER advice and counsel. It was as if she wasn't listening to me and wanted to leave.

Now, I really respect this woman. She taught me how to meditate. But none of her answers weren't exactly anything I couldn't come up with. Depending on how this talk went, I was going to stick with Soto Zen. Instead it pushed me further away. I love how she took time out of her day to talk to me, but if she can offer such answers to the base of questions, how valuable a teacher will she be when I really need it?

I'll keep visiting but I'm officially looking for an alternative. Looks like I'm going to a Ch'an Temple this weekend.
"Then do that." ;0]
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Now, I really respect this woman. She taught me how to meditate. But none of her answers weren't exactly anything I couldn't come up with. Depending on how this talk went, I was going to stick with Soto Zen. Instead it pushed me further away. I love how she took time out of her day to talk to me, but if she can offer such answers to the base of questions, how valuable a teacher will she be when I really need it?

It depends what you want from a teacher, but it's quite possible you won't find everything you need in one person. I think sometimes people expect too much.
 

Osal

Active Member
It depends what you want from a teacher, but it's quite possible you won't find everything you need in one person. I think sometimes people expect too much.

Quite right.

I've had a number of times when a teacher gave me an answer that was unexpected. I asked a meditation instructor about a particulaarly troubling situation with my practice and all he said was "It's just a thought." I expected something long, drawn-out and profound, but got just 4 words. After I thought about it a bit, I realized he was right.

Even tantrikas who have vows of Samaya with their guru rely on other teachers. The head of the Sakya lineage is in town right now and I attended a welcoming ceremony held for him this morning. Lots of folks from different lineages came out to hear him teach.

I also think that people's expectations of Buddhist teachers can be misplaced. Its a species of Spiritual Materialism. We think they'll be a certain way and in reality they're not like that at all.
 

chevron1

Active Member
I also think that people's expectations of Buddhist teachers can be misplaced. Its a species of Spiritual Materialism. We think they'll be a certain way and in reality they're not like that at all.

have you looked into the San Frnacisco Zen Center and its affiliates? it is supposed to be the best zen center ever. my friend norbert holter swears that he learned the best way of life from them. he is a donating patron and has given lots of money to them. i have been there myself just last year for example. there are residences in the zen center for people who have gone into seclusion to contemplate the best way to grow the world. i was even allowed to see into a room one time. they are small but comfy and they have the best view of san francisco ever. norbert used to go there all the time, but now i think he has decided to scale back his visits to temple. he was always such a religious person. i remember him showing me his anatomy drawing book (he is an artist at the new york arts institute of our lives) and in that book were naked pictures of men and women. norbert was a fair man who believed that to be really fair you had to give everyone a chance. that's whey the zen center loved him so much because he gave many of the monks and monkesses the best chance with him. in return, the monks and monkesses gave him the love of zen times two. that's why he donates so much of his income. it is the best zen center for fair people. if you're not the most fair, they make you fair by telling you how lucky you are to be alive in the world of zen because it is the luck of the irish.

San_Francisco_Zen_Center.jpg
 
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