Students for Concealed Carry on Campus

[Mister_T]

And even using the definition you highlighted it is still wrong.
They ALREADY have that permission.
the context in which you use the word is giving them something they do not already have, the guns.
Since they already have the guns

It's your understanding of California concealed weapons laws that is wrong. For almost all California citizens it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in public, let alone college campus, if you're not law enforcement. However, they will make exceptions for public safety concerns. Thus, Califonia in general, does not have that permission, therefore making what I previously said about, valid.

LIMITS ON CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS
May police limit carrying concealed handguns? Yes
California - State law allows police chiefs and state sheriffs to prohibit people from carrying concealed weapons (CCW) in public. Police chiefs and state sheriffs ?may issue" permits that allow people to carry concealed weapons if police believe it is in the interest of public safety. Anyone so approved by local law enforcement must undergo safety training in the legal and safe use of the weapon and there are limits in where they may carry such weapons.

Concealed Weapons Laws on Squidoo

 

[Mister_T]

Yet how many of them how CCPs?

I couldn't tell you nor am I sure of a way to actually detrmine such a thing.

And I have no problems with you have that opinion.

Good to know.

 

[Mister_T]

True, but those gang members probably already have guns and probably carry them regardless of the law.

You're absolutely right. Making gun laws in L.A. doesn't stop people from doing it anyways. Just watch our local news sometime.

 

[McBell]

It's your understanding of California concealed weapons laws that is wrong. For almost all California citizens it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in public, let alone college campus, if you're not law enforcement. However, they will make exceptions for public safety concerns. Thus, Califonia in general, does not have that permission, therefore making what I previously said, valid.

Which is the point you are missing.
The thread is about those who ALREADY HAVE that permission.
It is not about Giving anyone who does not ALREADY HAVE that permission, permission.

And your understanding of the California Carry Permit Laws is incorrect.
IF you had bothered going to the link I provided earlier in the thread you would have seen this:

12050 PC Issuance
​

(a)
The sheriff, ... upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying is a resident of the county, may issue ... a license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm ...
(b)
A license may include any reasonable restrictions or conditions which the issuing authority deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place, and circumstances under which the person may carry a concealed firearm.
​

You would have ALSO found this link to the page that states this:

According to California Penal Code Sections 12050-54 and the Ca Dept. of Justice Standard Application for CCW, the applicant must show "good cause" exists for the issuance of a CCW permit. The following are only examples of good cause statements used by other applicants in various counties here in CA. These examples can be successful when used properly in the application. These examples are just that. You should write your good cause or justification statements to suit your own individual case and circumstance.

Firearms Industry (dealers, Instructors, competitors, etc.)
Jewelers
High Value Business (any cash business or valuable product) Attorney
Private Investigator
Bail Enforcement/Bounty Hunter
Retraining Order/Threat
Medical Doctor (any that can prescribe)
Executive Protection Agent (bodyguard)​

 

[Mister_T]

The thread is about those who ALREADY HAVE that permission.

But the point you seem to be missing, is that the majority of Califonians do not have that permission. If we allowed concealed firearms in public, we would be giving them it because we do not at this moment, have it.

And your understanding of the California Carry Permit Laws is incorrect.
IF you had bothered going to the link I provided earlier in the thread you would have seen this:


According to California Penal Code Sections 12050-54 and the Ca Dept. of Justice Standard Application for CCW, the applicant must show "good cause" exists for the issuance of a CCW permit. The following are only examples of good cause statements used by other applicants in various counties here in CA. These examples can be successful when used properly in the application. These examples are just that. You should write your good cause or justification statements to suit your own individual case and circumstance.

Firearms Industry (dealers, Instructors, competitors, etc.)​

Jewelers​

High Value Business (any cash business or valuable product) Attorney​

Private Investigator​

Bail Enforcement/Bounty Hunter​

Retraining Order/Threat​

Medical Doctor (any that can prescribe)​

Executive Protection Agent (bodyguard)​

And if you actually took you time and bothered to read what I wrote correcty, you'd see that what I stated here,

For almost all California citizens it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in public, let alone college campus, if you're not law enforcement. However, they will make exceptions for public safety concerns.

is not in any way contradictory with your above post.​

 

[Mister_T]

But the point you seem to be missing, is that the majority of Califonians do not have that permission. If we allowed concealed firearms in public, we would be giving them it because we do not at this moment, have it.

Mestemia, this applies to people with a concealed weapons permit. Regardless if you have a concealed weapons permit, you generally cannot carry a concealed weapon in public

 

[McBell]

But the point you seem to be missing, is that the majority of Califonians do not have that permission. If we allowed concealed firearms in public, we would be giving them it because we do not at this moment, have it.

I am not missing that point at all.
The fact is that the only relevance to this thread that point has is that the proposal would not apply there anyway.

The thread is not about getting a CCP.
It is about those who already have said CCP being allowed to carry on campus just like they do everywhere else.

If they do not already have a CCP or are in an area where they cannot get a CCP then it does not apply to them.

And if you actually took you time and bothered to read what I wrote correcty, you'd see that what I stated here, is not in any way contradictory with your above post.

Your are correct.
I missed that part.
My apologies.

 

[McBell]

Mestemia, this applies to people with a concealed weapons permit. Regardless if you have a concealed weapons permit, you generally cannot carry a concealed weapon in public

Different states have different rules and regulations concerning where one may carry.
I was not allowed to carry in liquor stores, churches, police stations, court houses, government building, day cares, schools (though there are exceptions), correctional facilities, or airports.
Anywhere not on the above list I had my weapon.

 

[Mister_T]

The thread is not about getting a CCP.
It is about those who already have said CCP being allowed to carry on campus just like they do everywhere else.

Again, I know. The argument was about the my usuage of the word "giving." If we gave CCPer's permission to carry a fire arm on campus, we would be "giving" something to them, in this case, a gun (permission).

Your are correct.
I missed that part.
My apologies.

No worries.

Different states have different rules and regulations concerning where one may carry.
I was not allowed to carry in liquor stores, churches, police stations, court houses, government building, day cares, schools (though there are exceptions), correctional facilities, or airports.
Anywhere not on the above list I had my weapon.

I didn't metion it in my post, but I was talking strictly about California.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Concealed Carry

This is plain ignorant. That cartoon is exactly what the anti's said about ccw and what would happen. WRONG!

First off there is training. People do not just start shooting. Second, off duty police officers have this same danger and that danger is addressed in training.

This is why this does not happen at McDonalds or the Mall. This is why schools that already allow guns have not had a problem.

All this is, is simple liberal anti-gun propaganda.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So it's a question of whether it's better to take a defensive response and get out of the way or open up a small arms firefight on a college campus?

Dopp, your lack of formal gun training is quite evident. You don't pull you weapon and stand with feet wide apart and start blasting. You watch too much TV.

A defensive response is to find cover and then return fire. Experts can do this at the same time. You should go to a force on force drill with training guns that do sting! You learn real quick not to just stand there like an idiot.

There is so much training out there now, a citizen could easily have more training than a police officer, especially one with military experience as well.

Many civilian training facilities rival SWAT level training. You may not be picturing the right folks we are talking about. Some people go to school on the GI bill, and many students are in their 30's and 40's and are quite capable of handling a hand gun in a safe manner just fine.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Some people go to school on the GI bill, and many students are in their 30's and 40's and are quite capable of handling a hand gun in a safe manner just fine.

Depends on where you are. At TCU, most of the students (4 out of 5) are little 115lb blondes aged about 17-22.

They look fabulous, but I'd hate to see any of them on either end of a gun.

Cute little idiots.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This thread is SUPPOSED to be about allowing students who ALREADY have a concealed weapons permit the right to carry said concealed weapon on their college campus.Which makes sense since they are ALREADY carrying their concealed weapon everywhere else anyway.

I imagine that there are very few instances when the reason that the person has a concealed carry permit would be relevant on a college campus.

If a student has a concealed carry permit because, say, he regularily carries the deposit from his parent's restaurant to the bank, why is that any sort of reason for him to have a handgun in class?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Many states do not require a reason to have a CCW license. They are,"shall issue" states. If the state cannot find a reason they should not carry, mental illness, convicted felon, domestic violence, etc, they shall issue you a license after the proper training.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Mestemia, this applies to people with a concealed weapons permit. Regardless if you have a concealed weapons permit, you generally cannot carry a concealed weapon in public

I would not live in your restrictive state. The Marines cannot even recruit in some of your schools. I am surprised your state has not banned the fox network.

 

[McBell]

I imagine that there are very few instances when the reason that the person has a concealed carry permit would be relevant on a college campus.

If a student has a concealed carry permit because, say, he regularily carries the deposit from his parent's restaurant to the bank, why is that any sort of reason for him to have a handgun in class?

that is the very reason he should be allowed to carry in class.

Seems to me that you are looking at it backwards.
It isn't why should he be allowed, the fact that he has a CCP is why he should be allowed.
It is why should campus be a place he is not allowed to exercise his state granted privilege of carrying a concealed weapon.

 

[Mister_T]

I would not live in your restrictive state. The Marines cannot even recruit in some of your schools. I am surprised your state has not banned the fox network.

That's news to me. They've been at every school I've attended and are able to recruit in the malls even.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

that is the very reason he should be allowed to carry in class.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Unless he brings the deposit money to school with him, the reason for his concealed weapon permit isn't there when he's in class.

Seems to me that you are looking at it backwards.
It isn't why should he be allowed, the fact that he has a CCP is why he should be allowed.
It is why should campus be a place he is not allowed to exercise his state granted privilege of carrying a concealed weapon.

I see two ways of looking at it:

- he has demonstrated and/or gained the proper skills/experience/equipment/whatnot to carry a concealed weapon safely in public, therefore the risk of harm associated with having that particular firearm in a classroom is negligible, just as it would be if he were carrying it in any other public place.

- he has a particular reason to carry a concealed weapon in certain extraordinary circumstances, none of which are applicable in the classroom. His carrying of the weapon doesn't meet the intended purpose of the permit, and therefore is not justified.

I think which side of the debate you fall on depends how you approach the idea of concealed weapons: does the training and certification process mitigate all (or enough) potential harm? Does the intended purpose for the weapon matter in deciding where they're appropriate?

It was mentioned earlier that at least in one state, the law does not recognize general fear for one's safety as enough reason to carry a concealed weapon. I'm not sure I see much difference in the justification for carrying a weapon in the classroom in these two situations:

- "I fear for my safety in the classroom, and work part time as a baker."
- "I fear for my safety in the classroom, and work part time as a jewelry salesman."

 

[Reverend Rick]

that is the very reason he should be allowed to carry in class.

Seems to me that you are looking at it backwards.
It isn't why should he be allowed, the fact that he has a CCP is why he should be allowed.
It is why should campus be a place he is not allowed to exercise his state granted privilege of carrying a concealed weapon.

What if the college said you cannot drive a car to school?

 

[McBell]

I don't understand what you're getting at. Unless he brings the deposit money to school with him, the reason for his concealed weapon permit isn't there when he's in class.

Who said that he would take it to school if he got it for that reason?

Seems to me that there needs be a reason other than "I see no reason to have it."
There are several people who do see a reason for it.

I think which side of the debate you fall on depends how you approach the idea of concealed weapons: does the training and certification process mitigate all (or enough) potential harm?

In my opinion, yes it does.
But then I have gone through said training.
So I know first hand what it entails.
Now the training I received may or may not be to the same degree as other places that offer the same type training.
So I am basing my opinion on the training that I have received.

Does the intended purpose for the weapon matter in deciding where they're appropriate?

A concealed weapon is appropriate whenever/where ever the need for said weapon is present.

It was mentioned earlier that at least in one state, the law does not recognize general fear for one's safety as enough reason to carry a concealed weapon. I'm not sure I see much difference in the justification for carrying a weapon in the classroom in these two situations:

- "I fear for my safety in the classroom, and work part time as a baker."
- "I fear for my safety in the classroom, and work part time as a jewelry salesman."

Then in that state they will not get a CCP and it is therefore irrelevant to the topic.

What if the college said you cannot drive a car to school?

What if it did?