"Student's 'Jesus' shirt sparks feud with school"

[Oryonder]

Unless he is looking to play the self imposed martyr card...

or he is starved for attention.

or worse yet, a combination of the two...

Students said William Swinimer has been preaching and making them feel uncomfortable, and the shirt was the last straw so they complained.
"He's told kids they'll burn in hell if they don't confess themselves to Jesus," student Riley Gibb-Smith said.
Katelyn Hiltz, student council vice-president, agreed the controversy didn't begin with the T-shirt.
"It started with him preaching his religion to kids and then telling them to go to hell. A lot of kids don't want to deal with this anymore," she said

To continue .. proper education on religion would include facts such as:

1) We have no valid proof that any God exists

Sure there are folks that claim all kinds of things but non can be shown to be true.
There are hundreds of people throughout the ages that have made such claims.

2) we have no idea what awaits in the afterlife

No one has ever been proven to have come back to tell us. Sure there are many folks that claim to have visions or have written stories claiming knowledge of such a thing but the truth is .. we do not know.

3) No human speaks for God
Many humans have claimed to speak for God throughout history but non of these claims has ever been proven.

It can easily be seen that on the basis of either (1), (2), or (3) the claim this fellow is making is complete nonsense.

Unfortunately many of our high school students do not have the basic religious education to understand what utter nonsense this fellow is spewing.

We need to upgrade our education system so that not only the kids listening to this fellow, but this fellow himself, can have a better understanding of what is fact and what is fiction.

This education should be extended to any who immigrate to this country to ensure they can function at some bare mimimum standard such that they do not think it is OK to kill their daughter because "she has adopted western ways and I was embarrassed in front of the community" .

 

[Gomeza]

Expressing a love for Jesus is one thing. Expressing that non-believers are wasting their lives is another.

Hopefully you can understand why that second thing is unacceptable in a school.

Are you kidding? . . . or is it a case of misunderstanding my posts or should I concede an inability to express myself clearly?

In any event, I don't want my education tax dollars wasted on determining policies for other people's children to express their superstitions. Keeping all religions and expressions of faith out of public schools is the only suitable option in a multicultural society.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you kidding? . . . or is it a case of misunderstanding my posts or should I concede an inability to express myself clearly?

In any event, I don't want my education tax dollars wasted on determining policies for other people's children to express their superstitions. Keeping all religions and expressions of faith out of public schools is the only suitable option in a multicultural society.

I fail to see how it's in the interests of multuculturalism to completely prohibit a major form of cultural expression.

 

[McBell]

To continue .. proper education on religion would include facts such as:

1) We have no valid proof that any God exists

Sure there are folks that claim all kinds of things but non can be shown to be true.
There are hundreds of people throughout the ages that have made such claims.

2) we have no idea what awaits in the afterlife

No one has ever been proven to have come back to tell us. Sure there are many folks that claim to have visions or have written stories claiming knowledge of such a thing but the truth is .. we do not know.

3) No human speaks for God
Many humans have claimed to speak for God throughout history but non of these claims has ever been proven.

It can easily be seen that on the basis of either (1), (2), or (3) the claim this fellow is making is complete nonsense.

Unfortunately many of our high school students do not have the basic religious education to understand what utter nonsense this fellow is spewing.

We need to upgrade our education system so that not only the kids listening to this fellow, but this fellow himself, can have a better understanding of what is fact and what is fiction.

This education should be extended to any who immigrate to this country to ensure they can function at some bare mimimum standard such that they do not think it is OK to kill their daughter because "she has adopted western ways and I was embarrassed in front of the community" .

I cannot help but wonder how successful this proposed education would be.
That is if it can even be implemented in the first place.

I mean, such education does not work when there are facts and objective empirical evidence...
For prime examples of the source of my wondering, please check out the creation vs evolution sub-forum...

 

[McBell]

I fail to see how it's in the interests of multuculturalism to completely prohibit a major form of cultural expression.

Nor do I

 

[A Troubled Man]

Here's the update ... 'Jesus' T-shirt student taken out of school by dad - Nova Scotia - CBC News

From the link...

"Students said William Swinimer has been preaching and making them feel uncomfortable, and the shirt was the last straw so they complained. "He's told kids they'll burn in hell if they don't confess themselves to Jesus," student Riley Gibb-Smith said. Katelyn Hiltz, student council vice-president, agreed the controversy didn't begin with the T-shirt. "It started with him preaching his religion to kids and then telling them to go to hell. A lot of kids don't want to deal with this anymore," she said."


My, my, my... now the plot thickens. Obviously, this was never about Swinimer wanting to have his freedom to express his beliefs on his shirt, but was always about him evangelizing and threatening others with eternal damnation.


He is as dishonest as he is deluded and detrimental.

 

[Me Myself]

I still believe he has the right to have awful taste in t-shirts, and wear them in the school.

 

[Gomeza]

I fail to see how it's in the interests of multuculturalism to completely prohibit a major form of cultural expression.

Most people fail to see this point, that is until they experience a situation where the costs and efforts associated with the accommodation of so many differing beliefs detracts from the intended purpose of the public institution, in this case education. Every accommodation for religious beliefs opens the door for more accommodations in a multicultural society which can turn into a nightmare of acquiescence in an ever shifting youth demographic.

A policy of no religious expression may offend some but it is the easiest, most cost effective policy to implement and enforce as well as treating all beliefs equally.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Most people fail to see this point, that is until they experience a situation where the costs and efforts associated with the accommodation of so many differing beliefs detracts from the intended purpose of the public institution, in this case education. Every accommodation for religious beliefs opens the door for more accommodations in a multicultural society which can turn into a nightmare of acquiescence in an ever shifting youth demographic.

A policy of no religious expression may offend some but it is the easiest, most cost effective policy to implement and enforce as well as treating all beliefs equally.

You're not arguing in favour of multiculturalism; you're arguing that it's best if we abandon multiculturalism... at least in public schools.

 

[HerDotness]

You can't be serious, Me Myself. You honestly think it's okay for someone to wear to school a shirt that says anyone who doesn't believe as he does is a waste of life? You don't consider that a walking insult to a Jewish or Islamic fellow student or teacher, not to mention to all other non-Christians who encounter this guy?

I have no objection to his wearing the shirt anywhere else he wishes; that's his right to invite someone to beat the you-know-what out of him. But a school is a captive audience. Students and teachers have no choice but to see what he thinks of them. They can't go elsewhere to get away from this guy, especially not students having more than one class with him.

 

[fantome profane]

Here's the update ... 'Jesus' T-shirt student taken out of school by dad - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Shows there's always more to the story than meets the eye. I say good riddance.

Experts from the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission, the departments of education and justice, and guidance counsellors are at the school to conduct voluntary sessions so students can discuss the issue of religious tolerance.

On Friday, the South Shore Regional School Board ruled Swinimer would be allowed to wear the T-shirt, but also said it would bring in a facilitator on Monday to speak with students and parents.

School board superintendent Nancy Pinch-Worthylake said the board is using the incident as a learning experience.

"Our focus starting today is to work with students to use this as a learning experience. What we're focusing on is how we ensure that freedom to express religious beliefs continues, which we have always had and always supported, and talk about how we deal with it when there is not agreement around what that should look like in school," she said Monday.

The Human Rights Commission got this one right. I am both pleased and shocked.

And I applaud the way the school board is handling this now.

It is both sad and ironic that the father is now keeping his child out of that school because the school has decided to be tolerant of religion.

 

[HerDotness]

You're not arguing in favour of multiculturalism; you're arguing that it's best if we abandon multiculturalism... at least in public schools.

What are you talking about, Penguin? Why wouldn't we seek to forbid all specific religious expressions like this shirt in public schools?

If this guy is so zealous about proselytizing, his church should put him on a busy street corner with a bagful of Chick Tracts.

I must not understand what your point is. Kindly say more to clarify what you mean.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are you talking about, Penguin? Why wouldn't we seek to forbid all specific religious expressions like this shirt in public schools?

If this guy is so zealous about proselytizing, his church should put him on a busy street corner with a bagful of Chick Tracts.

I must not understand what your point is. Kindly say more to clarify what you mean.

I've said repeatedly that this particular shirt is inappropriate for school. It proved itself to be disruptive and was disrespectful to other students.

There are two points that I'm trying to argue right now:

1 - banning huge chunks of cultural expression goes against the idea of multiculturalism. Now... some people don't think that multiculturalism is worth protecting or promoting... for them, there's no conflict. However, it sounded like Gomeza does care about multiculturalism, which does create a conflict... and since an internally inconsistent argument is necessarily a bad one, it's a problem that he'd have to resolve somehow if wanted any hope of me accepting his conclusion.

2. I think a blanket ban on religious expression in schools is a bad idea for two main reasons. First, I think there's value in multiculturalism, and I don't think we should limit cultural expression unless there's a valid, justifiable reason, as there was in this case. I see no point in forbidding things like crucifixes, turbans, kippahs, "I (heart) Jesus" t-shirts, or other benign examples of religious expression. Second, I'm a big fan of secularism. I think tbe best government is a secular government... one that's blind to religion. A public institution that singles out religious expression for special treatmenr, whether positive or negative, goes against the ideals of secularism.

 

[HerDotness]

Okay, thank you for providing more detail. I read too many threads obviously and had forgotten what your earlier stated position was.

Religious headgear, clothing and visible jewelry (as well as the Darwin footed fish sported by some non-believers) are all forbidden by many U.S. employers. What's the big deal about banning them in public schools?

 

[Vinayaka]

When I taught, lots of kids wore necklaces with crosses on them, tucked under, bracelets had religious iconography etc. We had cover-up sweaters for cleavage, (You think this shirt was distracting!) and lots more censorship. Marijuana shirts, violent shirts, sexual innuendo shirts and more were covered up.

This story isn't now at all about the t-shirt, its about open in-your-face proseltysing at school.

Multiculturalism is and should be taught in Canadian schools. Its throughout the curriculum anyway, every time you study another country. But religion is usually taught within the context of a larger culture, along with other subtopics like food, clothing, and music.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, thank you for providing more detail. I read too many threads obviously and had forgotten what your earlier stated position was.

Religious headgear, clothing and visible jewelry (as well as the Darwin footed fish sported by some non-believers) are all forbidden by many U.S. employers. What's the big deal about banning them in public schools?

First off, this story isn't in the US; it's in Canada. We have different laws here, and in general, that sort of discrimination doesn't fly unless the company can demonstrate that accommodation is impossible or impractical.

Second, it's a public school, not an employer. Kids are legally required to go to school, and usually, only one school (the student's "home school" in the public system) is legally required to take him. A student can be legally forced into one school in a way that a person isn't legally forced into a job.

Third, it's a backward, convoluted way of doing things. I think it's much simpler to have the school board set out its purposes and goals, and then make its policies address them directly. Banning all religious expression on the assumption that most of it is generally bad makes no more sense than treating all churches as charities because most of them are generally good. I think it makes much more sense to completely ignore the religious aspect and instead set up policies that allow or prohibit types of expression (religious or non-religious) based on their actual effects.

 

[Nakosis]

Ah, so you are all for someone yelling fire in a crowd when there is no fire?
At what point, if any, do you draw the line?

If they cause actual harm by their actions they should be accountable for that harm. We don't need to limit free speech in order to deal with the example given.

Had he been suspended without being warned MULTIPLE times not to wear it, I would agree.

However, by the time he got suspended, it was not a matter of free speech but plain flat out rebellion.

There are times it is necessary to rebellion against authority. Not saying this was one such time but the threat of rebellion is not a good reason to limit speech.

Not when it interferes with the reason the students are there to begin with...

Mixing boys and girls together is I suspect much more disruptive to why they are there to begin with.

I don't see where he was being disruptive other then among those who held the idea he shouldn't be allowed to wear it.

It is a bunch of metal that is pieced together. it is not inherently disruptive.
However, some people use the fact that it is called a gun as an excuse to become disruptive....

A lot more risk of immediate physical damage being done by a kid bring a gun to school then a kid who wears a t-shirt with some slogan others disagree with.

If I were the principal, I would encourage him to go play the martyr somewhere else.

If I were the principle, I would encourage the students at the school to not allow the religious beliefs of others to disrupt their education.

 

[HerDotness]

When I taught, lots of kids wore necklaces with crosses on them, tucked under, the Mormon kids wore their underwear, bracelets had religious iconography etc. We had cover-up sweaters for cleavage, (You think this shirt was distracting!) and lots more censorship. Marijuana shirts, violent shirts, sexual innuendo shirts and more were covered up.

This story isn't now at all about the t-shirt, its about open in-your-face proseltysing at school.

Multiculturalism is and should be taught in Canadian schools. Its throughout the curriculum anyway, every time you study another country. But religion is usually taught within the context of a larger culture, along with other subtopics like food, clothing, and music.

Same here. I agree.

 

[HerDotness]

First off, this story isn't in the US; it's in Canada. We have different laws here, and in general, that sort of discrimination doesn't fly unless the company can demonstrate that accommodation is impossible or impractical.

Yes, I know that Nova Scotia is not the U.S. I guess I needed to say "here in the U.S." Sorry if I was unclear.

Hmmm...interesting that religious symbols and clothing are quite acceptable to Canadian employers. The U.S. is obviously somewhat different in that regard.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, I know that Nova Scotia is not the U.S. I guess I needed to say "here in the U.S." Sorry if I was unclear.

Hmmm...interesting that religious symbols and clothing are quite acceptable to Canadian employers. The U.S. is obviously somewhat different in that regard.

Not really. In both countries it depends on the employer and the symbol/clothing.