Suffering and evil

[nPeace]

The fact that God is omniscient, does not mean that we have no free-will .. it simply means that God knows what we will choose, through some mechanism we are not fully aware of.
If that was not the case, then God could not inform prophets of the future or end-times.

On what do you base this claim, if not on scripture?

Yes, omniscience throws up all sorts of issues and paradoxes.

If we go outside scripture, and adopt our own ideas, yes, that will happen.

Almighty God is truly all-Powerful and all-Knowing.
From our perspective in this universe, tomorrow "hasn't happened yet" .. and it is this that confuses us.

I don't understand. It confuses who.... those who would rather ignore scriptures in order to believe as they want?

To be consistent with what the Bible says, we cannot believe that God knows everything.
To do so, God has to exercise foreknowledge in everything.
The Bible repeatedly shows God does not.

Does God know if you will obey him to the end, or if you will give up on him, and curse him?

 

[nPeace]

I've read the Bible.

God created a poisonous tree, created laws that everyone would die because- as in Adam all die - God abandoned Adam and eve, did not protect them from the snake or the tree that God himself made.

Christianity is a nonsensical unjust craziness where all humanity gets killed for eating an apple. Then God kills Jesus - life for a life- because Adam ate an apple. (Actually Eve, but but it is a male church, so who cares about Eve)

Thou shalt die for eating an apple. Doesn't hold up in any court. Would you condemn anyone to death for eating an apple? Would you think it just to kill someone for eating a piece of fruit? Unjust, unloving, pure craziness! This story doesn't teach good morals, it is a nightmare.

It's a good thing you read the Bible, and read that man ate an apple, and God killed him.
I wonder where I can find a Bible like that.
It must only exist in your house, because not even atheists on here read that in any Bible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

On what do you base this claim, if not on scripture?

Yes, of course my beliefs are based on scripture.
..but we all have different creeds and different interpretations and understandings.

To be consistent with what the Bible says, we cannot believe that God knows everything..

To do so, God has to exercise foreknowledge in everything.
The Bible repeatedly shows God does not..

That is how you comprehend certain verses.
I do not see any point in "throwing" verses at each other that appear to contradict.
How do you comprehend the prophecies in the OT?
Isn't there a reason why they are called prophets?
They get their knowledge from God.

Does God know if you will obey him to the end, or if you will give up on him, and curse him?

Yes .. as I say, we comprehend that "it hasn't happened yet" as somehow absolute .. whereas as Einstein showed us in his relativity theories, time is not really absolute .. it is more complex.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, of course my beliefs are based on scripture.
..but we all have different creeds and different interpretations and understandings.


That is how you comprehend certain verses.
I do not see any point in "throwing" verses at each other that appear to contradict.
How do you comprehend the prophecies in the OT?
Isn't there a reason why they are called prophets?
They get their knowledge from God.


Yes .. as I say, we comprehend that "it hasn't happened yet" as somehow absolute .. whereas as Einstein showed us in his relativity theories, time is not really absolute .. it is more complex.

So, do you believe in reasoning with one another, or just asking questions and then saying, "Whatever you believe, you believe, but I believe different."?
You asked a question. I provided scripture in answer.
If you believe in using scripture, why not respond by telling me your version of the scriptures I quoted?

What's your version or response to
If God knows everything, why does he need to test persons out (their motives and intentions)... in order to get to know?
(Genesis 18:20-21) 20 Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. 21 I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.”

(Genesis 22:1-12) 1 Now after this the true God put Abraham to the test, and he said to him: “Abraham!” to which he replied: “Here I am!” 2 Then he said: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and travel to the land of Mo·riʹah and offer him up there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I will designate to you.” ... 12 Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”

(Deuteronomy 8:2) Remember the long road that Jehovah your God made you walk these 40 years in the wilderness, to humble you and to put you to the test so as to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.

(2 Chronicles 32:31) 31 However, when the spokesmen of the princes of Babylon were sent to ask him about the sign that had occurred in the land, the true God left him alone to put him to the test, to get to know all that was in his heart.

If God knows everything, why does he need to search hearts... in order to get to know?
(Psalms 7:9) Please put an end to the evil deeds of the wicked. But establish the righteous, Since you are the righteous God who examines the hearts and the deepest emotions.

(Psalms 139:23) Search through me, O God, and know my heart. Examine me, and know my anxious thoughts.


Also, what scriptures do you use to say God knows if you will endure to the end or not?

 

[Madmogwai]

How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen? Things like birth defects, the death of innocent people, starvation and sickness in developing nations, dictators, etc. I can't believe in a god that doesn't keep these things from happening.

Karma, your born with these issues due to past actions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, do you believe in reasoning with one another, or just asking questions and then saying, "Whatever you believe, you believe, but I believe different."?
You asked a question. I provided scripture in answer.
If you believe in using scripture, why not respond by telling me your version of the scriptures I quoted?

..well, you have already answered it yourself in post #235.

You said "Can God exercise his ability to know anything he wants to? Yes - Isaiah 46:9-11
Is there a need for God to know everything? No - Deuteronomy 30:19-20

That is rather cryptic, isn't it?
On the one hand you say that God can know anything he wants, and on the other hand you say he doesn't need to..
..well, which is it?
Does G-d know everything, or not?
I cannot believe that God purposefully refuses to know things .. that makes no sense at all.

Also, what scriptures do you use to say God knows if you will endure to the end or not?

Oh dear .. you want to play that game?

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.

1 John 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

I don't agree with this "verse throwing", but you insisted.

 

[nPeace]

..well, you have already answered it yourself in post #235.

You said "Can God exercise his ability to know anything he wants to? Yes - Isaiah 46:9-11
Is there a need for God to know everything? No - Deuteronomy 30:19-20

That is rather cryptic, isn't it?
On the one hand you say that God can know anything he wants, and on the other hand you say he doesn't need to..
..well, which is it?
Does G-d know everything, or not?
I cannot believe that God purposefully refuses to know things .. that makes no sense at all.

On the one hand?
How is that?
God has the ability to foreknow anything. He does not choose to.
There is no, "on the other hand" there.

Oh dear .. you want to play that game?

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.

1 John 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

I don't agree with this "verse throwing", but you insisted.

So you cannot explain the scriptures in your context? Okay.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God has the ability to foreknow anything. He does not choose to..

Does that even make sense?
"God can know anything, but chooses not to".

I think that you see God as some kind of person.
I see God as being aware of every electron spinning around atoms that make up the universe .. not only is He aware of each and every one right now .. but He ia aware of the past and future of these atoms simultaneously.
It is none but God that keeps all planets spinning in their orbits.

Almighty God is infinite, and cannot be bounded.

 

[nPeace]

Does that even make sense?
"God can know anything, but chooses not to".

I think that you see God as some kind of person.
I see God as being aware of every electron spinning around atoms that make up the universe .. not only is He aware of each and every one right now .. but He ia aware of the past and future of these atoms simultaneously.
It is none but God that keeps all planets spinning in their orbits.

Almighty God is infinite, and cannot be bounded.

Then, why can't God lie... or does your worldview say he can, because there is nothing God cannot do?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then, why can't God lie... or does your worldview say he can, because there is nothing God cannot do?

It is not that He "can't" lie, it is that He does NOT lie.

 

[nPeace]

It is not that He "can't" lie, it is that He does NOT lie.

Oh. So now it is a case that he exercises an ability - He can choose not to.
Everything contrary to scripture, I see. Sounds like you believe your ideas trump scripture.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Everything contrary to scripture, I see..

I'm not sure why you are taking this stance..

I started off saying that G-d knew that Adam and Eve would sin..
..and you are claiming that G-d chose "not to know"?

He creates Adam and Eve, and choses not to remember what He created?
We all sin .. it was only a matter of time.

Fortunately for us, God forgives those that repent .. and Adam and Eve did just that.

 

[nPeace]

I'm not sure why you are taking this stance..

I started off saying that G-d knew that Adam and Eve would sin..
..and you are claiming that G-d chose "not to know"?

He creates Adam and Eve, and choses not to remember what He created?
We all sin .. it was only a matter of time.

Fortunately for us, God forgives those that repent .. and Adam and Eve did just that.

"choses not to remember what He created?" What?
I don't know why you made that up, but maybe you know.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I would never kill a child over eating an apple. That is unjust, and unloving.

Obviously you’re speaking about Adam. He wasn’t a “child”. In fact, he lived to be 930 years old.

To @muhammad_isa : why does the Bible record this, that Adam & his offspring, up to several generations later, were living for centuries but are shown to gradually decline in longevity?

It’s evidence that humans were designed to live forever, as long as they obeyed & listened to Jehovah.

Romans 5:12 explains that death only came to mankind, “through sin.” It “spread”. It’s an inherited condition.
Which is one of the main reasons why the Messiah - the Christ - came. (Matthew 20:28; 1 Corinthians 15 22) To undo all the hurt that death has caused, through the promised resurrection. — 1 Corinthians 15:21-26; Hebrews 2:14; 1 John 3:8;
Ephesians 1:9-10. Notice, Ephesians says “things in Heaven and….on Earth.”

Remember the Sermon on the Mount?
In that Sermon, Jesus stated at Matthew 5:5, “the meek….will inherit the Earth.”
Will they die again? Please read Revelation 21:3-4…. “the tent of God is with” who? “Mankind….and they will be His people”. Then it continues: “And death will be no more.”

No more death = everlasting life.
@nPeace & I hope to be a part of that group. We hope you will, too. We wish it for everyone.

Take care, cousin.

 

[idea]

Obviously you’re speaking about Adam. He wasn’t a “child”. In fact, he lived to be 930 years old.

I wouldn't kill an adult for eating an apple either.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I wouldn't kill an adult for eating an apple either.

Adam died from old age, wouldn’t you say? Extreme old age. Do you expect to live that long?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

To @muhammad_isa :
Hello my cousin, Hope you are healthy & staying safe.

The Bible tells us that Adam lived to be 930 years old.
Maybe a good question to ask is, “Why did Adam live so long?” Have you ever wondered that?

What does that imply? Would it have something to do with God creating Adam perfect at the start of his life?

@nPeace , this thread sort of died out, huh?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

On what do you base this claim, if not on scripture?


If we go outside scripture, and adopt our own ideas, yes, that will happen.


I don't understand. It confuses who.... those who would rather ignore scriptures in order to believe as they want?

To be consistent with what the Bible says, we cannot believe that God knows everything.
To do so, God has to exercise foreknowledge in everything.
The Bible repeatedly shows God does not.

Does God know if you will obey him to the end, or if you will give up on him, and curse him?

Good reasoning.
Another way to reason on it, is…
as humans, are we not curious about different things, etc.? Since we’re ‘made in God’s image’, why would Jehovah God be different in that way? Discovery makes living fun & exciting! Why would Jehovah be any different? And the Bible does say that we can either make Him sad or make Him rejoice. We couldn’t do that, if He knew what we’d do.

So I can understand why He would choose not to know.

Take care, my brother.

 

[idea]

Adam died from old age, wouldn’t you say? Extreme old age. Do you expect to live that long?

As in Adam all die -
it would be nice if no one died at all. over an apple? silly story, no morals at all.

Science | AAAS
Two research teams reverse signs of aging in mice

I wouldn't mind never getting old.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I wouldn't mind never getting old.

I agree with that. I wouldn’t mind never getting old, either.
In fact, that’s (part of) the promise:
“Let his flesh become fresher than in youth.” — Job 33:25
Job 33:25 - Elihu Rebukes Job

With the way our bodies rejuvenate themselves, it’s easy to understand how we could live forever.
It’s harder to explain why, as humans age, the process breaks down.
But imperfection is an inherited condition. — Romans 5:12

Genesis 3 shows that the issue of Jehovah God’s sovereignty (right to rule) was raised, and Adam gave it validity by him choosing to rebel.

Time was / has been required to settle that issue…. Humans have pretty much failed at all forms of rulership, establishing a record of ineptitude & incompetence. For all to see.