Suicide, cowardly?

[Spirit_Warrior]

That's how Rajiv Malhotra got his list of 81 (can't remember the exact number) untranslatable Sanskrit words. I suspect a lot of the western misconceptions about us started out this way. But I'll stop this line, as I don't want to detract from a very serious issue.

More info: Facts about suicide

I do not want to belabour the point, so Ill just say this much and then keep my silence. It is OK to build bridges by seeking similarities between cultures and religions. We often focus too much on the differences and miss just how similar we really are. Hinduism is well known for this, through examples like Yogananda, Ramarkishna, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, who were not adverse to translating Krishna-consciousness as Christ consciousness or calling Brahman God. For all intents and purpose 'paap' is sin.

Anyway, I want to share something else on the topic:

For a Hindu, committing suicide doesn't really end the pain, it simply postpones it to the next life, where you will have to deal with it yet again. It's not wrong or right, it's a question of if it really works for what you intended.

If this is actually right, and this would make an argument that one might as well endure the pain here in this life, so they don't have to in the next life. However, this is easy to say, but if you did fall in a pit of snakes and you had a second to pick up the gun and shoot yourself, wouldn't you rather do that, or just allow all the snakes to bite you and eat your body alive bit by bit for the sake of not enduring that pain in another life, where the next you is probably most likely not going to remember.

Also, what if there was a way to avoid the pain in your next life. In Yogasutras, Patanjali talks about how we can avoid the pain that is yet to come by burning the samskaras. I'd rather risk that to be honest than endure a horrible death that I could have escaped by taking an easy way out.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

Here is a scenario that just occurred to me. I once read that if you were to get caught by an atomic blast, the effects of that would be so damaging, it would cause a lot damage to your subtle body/soul too. If we assume that is true(just assume), suppose you have minutes before a nuclear bomb falls directly on you, would you just wait for the nuclear bomb to fall on you and risk causing massive damage to your soul, or would you put a gun to your head and shoot yourself to get out of there before it comes?

 

[Vinayaka]

If we assume that is true(just assume), suppose you have minutes before a nuclear bomb falls directly on you, would you just wait for the nuclear bomb to fall on you and risk causing massive damage to your soul, or would you put a gun to your head and shoot yourself to get out of there before it comes?

In my view it is the soul/subtle body that has an ego/personality and a physical body, not the other way around, as you put it.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

In my view it is the soul/subtle body that has an ego/personality and a physical body, not the other way around, as you put it.

Lets try not to caught up too much in the details, this is why I said "just assume" If the subtle body does get damaged if it gets caught up in an atomic blast, would you commit suicide to escape it? What if the damage would last with you for lifetimes?

(By the way some studies do suggest the subtle body can be caught up in materials like electric fields, and hence why electric gauges can detect the presence of subtle bodies in some studies. As the subtle body is made up of the same 5 elements which make up the gross body, it can be influenced by matter ---- but that is another topic!!)

 

[Milton Platt]

I know that there are a million and one potential answers to literally anything.
But all the same, I was wondering, what is the Hindu thought on suicide?
Is it adharmic? Are there karmic consequences? Is it free will or fate?

Also, there does seem to be an underlying current of thinking (at least in my tradition) that an act of suicide, although to be pitied and given sympathy, is ultimately an act of cowardice.
But how does one reconcile this in real life? And where would such a thought even originate from?

So, let's set up a scenario. Say I develop a form of cancer or perhaps a disease that means I will have to have around the clock nursing care for months or years and this will mean draining all of my life's savings, mortgaging the home, etc. And ultimately I will die anyway. Is it cowardly to take my life and not leave my family to live as paupers on the street? Or is it an act of Love and compassion?

 

[SomeRandom]

So, let's set up a scenario. Say I develop a form of cancer or perhaps a disease that means I will have to have around the clock nursing care for months or years and this will mean draining all of my life's savings, mortgaging the home, etc. And ultimately I will die anyway. Is it cowardly to take my life and not leave my family to live as paupers on the street? Or is it an act of Love and compassion?

Well, to be fair, that might be an American thing. People where I live with very serious conditions already have public health services paid for. My dad battled cancer for 16 years and we never so much as spent a cent on hospital bills. That includes live in nursing services, which we personally didn't use, but I know that they are rather affordable in this country. Though the quality can vary depending on how much you would like to spend. The Catholic-run services are usually pretty cheap considering they're privately run. But they get support from the Government. All my dad's treatments went through our Medicare System. The treatments were all cheap as chips too. Now dentist bills on the other hand.
So such a situation is rather foreign to me, sorry. But I do agree, an act of compassion should not be considered cowardly.

 

[Vinayaka]

So, let's set up a scenario. Say I develop a form of cancer or perhaps a disease that means I will have to have around the clock nursing care for months or years and this will mean draining all of my life's savings, mortgaging the home, etc. And ultimately I will die anyway. Is it cowardly to take my life and not leave my family to live as paupers on the street? Or is it an act of Love and compassion?

Personally, I would fast to physical body death.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is it cowardly to take my life and not leave my family to live as paupers on the street? Or is it an act of Love and compassion?

Most people other than religious nuts support medical euthanasia.

Personally, I would fast to physical body death.

You want to see other people suffer because of you? Being selfish, uncaring for others - I will be against that.
What one wants to achieve through 'ghore tapasya' can also be achieved through 'aghore tapasya'. I would term it as superstition. Remember 'ati sarvatra vrjayet', 'the middle path'!
Man slits his throat in Jharkhand temple, offers himself to goddess - Times of India

 

[Jainarayan]

Once upon a time, on June 3, 1992, there was a guy who was so despondent that he guzzled down a pint of gin in the space of about 15 minutes. He hadn't eaten all day, so of course the alcohol hit like a ton of bricks.

It doesn't matter why he was despondent. Suffice to say he was despondent enough to know that much alcohol might end it all. He just didn't care. Not even about his cat who meant the world to him. He knew a friend or relative would care for her.

He was taken to the ER where they put him in a locked room, drew blood which showed a bac of .216. He was interviewed by psych staff and kept overnight. If he had a bit more alcohol he might have hit 0.3: coma... if he was lucky. But he dodged that bullet.

Obviously he survived. He wasn't thinking whether he was a coward, or weak or strong. He didn't think anything. Sure, he had been to therapy and on medication, but clearly they didn't work. He only saw one way to stop what he was experiencing. It's easy to pass judgement when you haven't walked in his boots.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Obviously he survived. He wasn't thinking whether he was a coward, or weak or strong. He only saw one way to stop what he was experiencing. It's easy to pass judgement when you haven't walked in his boots.

Ignorance. Why did he have to go to therapy? I blame lack of family support particularly in US. India is a little luckier in this respect.

 

[Vinayaka]

Suicide rates by country ... Suicide Rates By Country

Before one gets to ethnocentricity, one ought to read this here statistics.

 

[SomeRandom]

Ignorance. Why did he have to go to therapy? I blame lack of family support particularly in US. India is a little luckier in this respect.

Because therapy is professional help, similar to going to the doctor when one is physically ill.
Quite frankly family support should defer to those with actual expertise rather than keeping it in house. That's just playing with fire.
The US is rather notorious for its awful mental health help, but it's more to do with politics than any sort of family structure.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Suicide rates by country ... Suicide Rates By Country

Before one gets to ethnocentricity, one ought to read this here statistics.

There are various reasons for higher suicides in India. Wikipedia has the right information. Unfortunately there is no break-up of 'Other Family Problems'. Domestic violence seems to have been mentioned as a major cause. Health is a major cause in the next three items.

And the information is in great variance with what you have provided. "Between 1987 and 2007, the suicide rate increased from 7.9 to 10.3 per 100,000, with higher suicide rates in southern and eastern states of India." "The southern states of Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu along with eastern state of West Bengal, Tripura and Mizoram have a suicide rate of greater than 16 while in the Northern States of Punjab, Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, the suicide rate is less than 4. Puducherry reported the highest suicide rate at 36.8 per 100,000 people, followed by Sikkim, Tamil Nadu and Kerala. The lowest suicide rates were reported in Bihar (0.8 per 100,000), followed by Nagaland, then Manipur." Suicide in India - Wikipedia

 

[ajay0]

Interesting. But what about just puttering out at the end? Fighting your whole life, maybe 60 70 years and just finally giving up in complete exhaustion?
Surely compassion comes into play?

If the physical and intellectual faculties are quite retarded due to old age, not permitting one to think and act correctly, then some opt the practice of Santhara in the jain tradition where they give up food and drink completely. No sin is created in this regard as per jainism, and the very act becomes a meritorious spiritual exercise or austerity.

But this is permitted only for those of extreme old age and physical inability, and not for the young and physically healthy.

 

[निताइ dasa]

No, I don't think it is cowardly.

But generally, it is paapa (sin).. Excusing instances of ritual suicide (which I don't think apply in this age anyway), suicide generates as much negative Karma as murder of another being. This is because, suicide is an offense against one's own self (it is called atmahatya in scripture). Everything that we get is a fruit of previous Karma, so in the ultimate sense, if we do commit suicide in order to end some suffering, that suffering will not end, but continue to its fruition in the next life. That is why suicide is not permitted by scripture.

When we kill ourselves, we are causing pain to the Paramatma who dwells within us, and therefore atmahatya is a sin. There are 6 sins of specific murder (hatya) which stand out: brahma-hatya (killing a brahmana), go-hatya (cow slaughter), bhrina-hatya (abortion), krimi-hatya (killing insects), Svana-hatya (killing children) and atma-hatya (suicide).

There are some verses in the Garuda Purana about this:

Those who meet with foul death such committing suicide by hanging from a tree, by poison or weapon become ghosts and roam over the earth." Garuda Purana II.22.18
Just as money thrown in water or sacred fire on the cross roads, similarly rites performed for the sinner bear no fruit at all." Garuda Purana II.44.1-5
"There are people who commit suicide---for such persons, there is no rite of cremation, no water-libation, no rite of obsequy and no observance of impurity."Garuda Purana II.40.4-12

Skanda Purana is a bit more extreme:

"Those people who kill themselves will enter (the word of) blinding darkness. After experiencing the tortures in a thousand hells, they will be born as a village pig. Therefore, suicide should never be committed by a wise one. Nothing auspicious will befall those who kill themselves, here in this world or in the other worlds." Skanda Purana IV.i.12.12-13

"Barring prayopavesa (fasting unto death) no one shall indulge in self-killing." Skanda Purana IV.i.74

Generally those beings who commit suicide enter into their subtle bodies (not gross ones) and exist as ghosts within this world, until the Karma of suicide has ended. It is also interesting. Depression and Suicidal tendencies are symptoms of tamo guna. When the influence of Tamo Guna becomes prominent within us, then these tendencies arise within us. That is why, in order to curtail this, the scriptures tell us to live a sattvic life. All those beings in Tamoguna (including Bhootas and Pretas) are under the control of Lord Shiva, who is their director and Lord.

 

[Kirran]

Ignorance. Why did he have to go to therapy? I blame lack of family support particularly in US. India is a little luckier in this respect.

The other side of that coin is much higher family pressures, to conform, to achieve etc. Homophobia in India certainly does nothing to reduce youth suicide and depression rates.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I cannot deny that. It is not all hunky-dori. We too have our problems.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But this is permitted only for those of extreme old age and physical inability, and not for the young and physically healthy.

13-Year-Old Jain Girl Dies In Hyderabad After Fasting For 68 Days

Oh, the maharaj ji is being pulled in a ratham. He is not placing his foot on ground after sweaping it gently to remove any living being present there. He is not practicing Jainism, only preaching it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Ignorance. Why did he have to go to therapy? I blame lack of family support particularly in US. India is a little luckier in this respect.

Well I... I mean he suffers from clinical depression and bipolar. I... I mean he tried therapy before opting for meds.

 

[Jainarayan]

Quite frankly family support should defer to those with actual expertise rather than keeping it in house. That's just playing with fire.

Also because families themselves often have problems of their own. My family for example, is very self-centered. They talk a good game about being family but it's only talk.