Suicide

[michel]

Wow, Paul, though I cannot claim to be as 'ill' as your Dad, I can see his point, and he very much echoes my feelings.

I often go to sleep at night hoping I won't wake up in the morning.

 

[ChrisP]

Yes, because every decision we make in life should always revolve around what others want and never on what we feel is best for ourselves.

Perhaps suicide is somewhat "selfish," but sometimes decisions have to be made on what is best for the self, not what will be best for the sensibilities of others. Perhaps it is selfish of those that "care" to want the suicidal to live, even if life is too painful for them, just so they don't have to be upset over a death. Just an idea.

I'm not sure I can do this without getting slightly angry, but please know that it's anger at myself for wasting a lot of my years in self-deprecating "Why me" thinking.

'Lyss I know you've had a lot of thoughts along this line and You've probably been told by 100 people you've got a "bad attitude" and not in a " I'm Baaad" way. I'm here to tell you they're right.

I didn't believe them for 24 years, but now I know for certain without question, they are right. Please believe me now, because being there for other people doesn't mean tip-toeing round things and making polite conversation while trying not to hurt feelings. It means telling them when they're wrong and treating themselves badly and it means noticing when they're down, cheering them up and getting their day on track. A friendly bawdy discussion or a smile and a warm g'day can often set them right.

Let me get my earlier point straight for you. Do what you like. That's your choice. But don't think there won't be people who are sad and lonely when you leave them. I've been to this place more times than I care to count, and let me tell you now, the only thing that has put it behind me is knowing there are other people out there I just MIGHT be able to help. Putting a smile on someone's face when they're feeling down, there is no better feeling.

At the same time I've got no patience anymore for people who will sit around doing literally NOTHING, while complaining they hate their life. Get up and do some cleaning or spend time some doing some other chore. Forget thinking about your situation because it IS WHAT IT IS just do something, and the feeling always passes while in the process you're actually DOING something about how you feel. I've noticed a distinct correlation between the cleanliness and general... airyness/environmental... enjoyableness of a happy persons room/home and a depressed/suicidal persons. So yeah. Do cleaning, it helps I promise.

With that said if life's to painful for you then go for it. I'd rather someone did something like that than let their family and friends listen to them whine perpetually about how much their life sucks while actually making no effort to rectify that. This isn't about self loathing, this is about doing. DO DO DO DO DO.

DO ANYTHING! Please I'm begging you, even if it's sweep the floor or tidy the Lounge.

I've seen people in more pain emotionally and mentally than you can possibly imagine. I've know 4 people who've suicided, I've been with 2 people as they died from overdoses and another person as they died from a heartattack leaving behind a family with 2 children under 10 years of age and no income.

Let me tell you right now that the pain the people around you feel is nothing compared to what you go through when suicidal.

I can't come close to describing my own feelings when a close friend of mine did this while I was in the house, or the looks on his mothers face when I went to tell them. And there's no way in hell of describing how those 2 young boys felt watching their father die on the corridor of their home.

So yeah, I've been round more suicide, depression and misery than most and I can tell you right now it's almost entirely self inflicted. For the record NZ has the highest Youth male suicide rate in the world, and is fairly high in the female rankings too. Not a statistic we're proud of.

So my point is, the pain a suicidal person feels is nothing compared to those around them, and is something that only THEY can change. Don't put the onus on someone else with holier than thou "it's my right" bs. If you're going to do it, do it, but don't pretend you're doing it for reasons any greater than "I can't be bothered finding ways to cope, or improving my life so I feel a bit better about things".

If you're looking for suggestions you've both got my MSN give me a bell, I may not be a psychologist but as you can probably tell from the above I've seen a lot of this stuff and known a lot of people who attempted it and then moved on past it and are now happy. I've seen what's changed about them and can maybe let you know how their lives changed with their attitudes.

And for anyone else reading my angry rant, if you know anyone like this can I make the suggestion of a smile and a crass joke. It almost always set me right

 

[ChrisP]

Can I just add now, I consider Euthanasia in a completely different light.

I'm sorry my last post was so long... but it's a rather convoluted explanation. Maybe when I understand it better myself, but for now that will have to do.

 

[standing_alone]

So yeah, I've been round more suicide depression and misery than most and I can tell you right now it's almost entirely self inflicted.

Whether the pain and misery is self-inflicted or not is irrelavant, in my opinion.

So my point is, the pain a suicidal person feels is nothing compared to those around them, and is something that only THEY can change.

Precisely. And if the suicidal person decides to end it all, it is just a decision that person made.

Don't put the onus on someone else with holier than thou "it's my right" bs. If you're going to do it, do it, but don't pretend you're doing it for reasons any greater than "I can't be bothered finding ways to cope, or improving my life so I feel a bit better about things".

How is it not a right to be able to decide what to do with your own life, whether to go on or not? I've struggled with suicide myself and attempted once (BUT am no longer suicidal), I know I looked for ways to cope. It wasn't some laziness on my part; of not wanting to find ways to cope. It was more frustration than anything. So don't claim that (not wanting to find ways to cope) is all there is to it. That, my friend, is bs. There are as many reasons for suicides as there are suicide attempts. Not every suicide is the same.

If you're looking for suggestions you've both got my MSN give me a bell, I may not be a psychologist but as you can probably tell from the above I've seen a lot of this stuff and known a lot of people who attempted it and then moved on past it and are now happy.

No thanks. I'm not suicidal.

 

[standing_alone]

'Lyss I know you've had a lot of thoughts along this line and You've probably been told by 100 people you've got a "bad attitude" and not in a " I'm Baaad" way. I'm here to tell you they're right.

Alot of thoughts along what line? Suicide?

Also, please don't claim to "know" what kind of thoughts I have. You don't.

Also, I know I have what most deem a "bad attitude." What's your point?

 

[zombieharlot]

Edit: I consider all actions to be "selfish" and suicide to be equal in selfishness to every other act.

I actually agree with you on that. You're the only other person I've found that believes that too.

 

[ChrisP]

Whether the pain and misery is self-inflicted or not is irrelavant, in my opinion.

How so? If it comes from yourself there is something you can do about it.

Precisely. And if the suicidal person decides to end it all, it is just a decision that person made.

Yes it is a decision that person made, but it is not JUST. This is not some cut and dried rights issue, this is a human emotional thing. These are people with feelings, not about some silly legislation.... we already have the right to kill ourselves. It's illegal but they're not going to prosecute you when you're dead are they? Which effectively makes it legal.

It was more frustration than anything. So don't claim that (not wanting to find ways to cope) is all there is to it.

Frustration indeed. Frustration at what?

That, my friend, is bs. There are as many reasons for suicides as there are suicide attempts. Not every suicide is the same.

There are PLENTY of reasons but only 1 or 2 emotional states. My concern here is not with laws. I have little or no respect for laws of any kind. It is with recognising the cause of the need for suicide, and the effects of suicides on society.

People are far more important to me than words on a page proclaiming things which SHOULD be. You can write laws til you're blue in the face but if the populace ignores them... they're only a law on paper.

No thanks. I'm not suicidal.

Well good

 

[ChrisP]

Alot of thoughts along what line? Suicide?

Also, please don't claim to "know" what kind of thoughts I have. You don't.

Also, I know I have what most deem a "bad attitude." What's your point?

Well I apologise for assuming, but your... I hate to use it but... "self-loathing" does come through a lot when I talk to you or read your posts.

"Bad attitude" not in a way directed at other people, but in a way that is self-destructive.

 

[standing_alone]

How so? If it comes from yourself there is something you can do about it.

Yeah, you can do something about it and it's your decision to make, whether it's suicide or something else. It's not something that is up to others, unless you seek advice or suggestions from others, like say, a mental health professional.

Yes it is a decision that person made, but it is not JUST. This is not some cut and dried rights issue, this is a human emotional thing. These are people with feelings, not about some silly legislation.... we already have the right to kill ourselves. It's illegal but they're not going to prosecute you when you're dead are they? Which effectively makes it legal.

Did I mention legislation? No. I said right. And I meant it as in one has the ability to make that decision without interference from others. I didn't mean it to come off like no one is allowed to end their lives. My mistake if it did.

Also, I understand the emotion issue regarding suicide.

And why is the act of ending one's own life unjust?

Frustration indeed. Frustration at what?

Frustration that every coping mechanism I tried to find didn't work and the people that supposedly cared about me (at least when it was convenient for them) only put me down and didn't offer any help. But enough about my personal experience.

There are PLENTY of reasons but only 1 or 2 emotional states. My concern here is not with laws. I have little or no respect for laws of any kind. It is with recognising the cause of the need for suicide, and the effects of suicides on society.

People are far more important to me than words on a page proclaiming things which SHOULD be. You can write laws til you're blue in the face but if the populace ignores them... they're only a law on paper.

My concern isn't with laws, either. My concern is that people have the ability to make a choice as to whether they want to end their life or not, regardless of what the law states. Obviously, anyone can end their life if they so choose. I have no intention to write laws.

Also, surprisingly enough, I find people more important than laws, too. Though I'm sure you'll disagree.

 

[michel]

Well I apologise for assuming, but your... I hate to use it but... "self-loathing" does come through a lot when I talk to you or read your posts.

"Bad attitude" not in a way directed at other people, but in a way that is self-destructive.

Of course it is, but it is 'built in'; the sufferer has no ability to present him/her self in a different way.

 

[standing_alone]

Well I apologise for assuming, but your... I hate to use it but... "self-loathing" does come through a lot when I talk to you or read your posts.

"Bad attitude" not in a way directed at other people, but in a way that is self-destructive.

So what if my attitude is self-destructive? Why should it concern you?

 

[ChrisP]

So what if my attitude is self-destructive? Why should it concern you?

Because I care. And that's kinda my point. Why don't you care? Why don't people care about other people so much anymore. We're an apathetic society now, and apathy is a dangerous thing.

As for your last post I don't think we're talking about the same thing, I see what you're saying but I could never agree to letting someone ending their life without trying to help. I've tried several times, but haven't tried again in the last three years, because of understanding that came to me.

 

[ChrisP]

Of course it is, but it is 'built in'; the sufferer has no ability to present him/her self in a different way.

I would argue they do, and it is a choice we make. I know what you're saying, it's a state of mind I can understand and appreciate. There's so much more to people though, you can show yourself the way if you lift up your gaze. You'll never know where you're going staring at the ground.

 

[zombieharlot]

Well, Chris, you never answered my post from earlier. Why is it selfish for someone to kill themself, but not selfish for the person who won't let them?

 

[standing_alone]

Why don't you care? Why don't people care about other people so much anymore.

Care about what? Myself? Or other people? I assure you I care about other people, as well as myself.

but I could never agree to letting someone ending their life without trying to help.

And neither could I. Believe me, if someone I cared about/loved wanted to end his/her life, I'd do all I could to help. I'm just saying that overall, I don't think suicide is a "bad" thing, though I think it's sad and tragic and that it's just an option people have, whether I like it or not is irrelavant. I don't like suicide. I don't advocate it. I'm just stating that people have such an option, I guess.

 

[ChrisP]

Well, Chris, you never answered my post from earlier. Why is it selfish for someone to kill themself, but not selfish for the person who won't let them

Sorry dude, I completely forgot about it. It's selfish from both perspectives in most cases. At the same time, in the case of family members it's USUALLY unselfish.

There's a bond between families that I'd like to think is the Greek love "Agape". Agape is "Selfless Love" where we wish only the best for one another in life in an unselfish way, and do what we can to help in this regard. If a family member took their own life without even talking about it with their family and asking for their help... well then that IS selfish.

The family is left wondering what could have been done, knowing in their hearts they could have done something but weren't given the time or opportunity.

 

[ChrisP]

Care about what? Myself? Or other people? I assure you I care about other people, as well as myself.

Sorry, that was poorly worded it wasn't specific. My point is we say we care, but city society is no longer interested. There's no sense of "community" in most urban environments now.

And neither could I. Believe me, if someone I cared about/loved wanted to end his/her life, I'd do all I could to help. I'm just saying that overall, I don't think suicide is a "bad" thing, though I think it's sad and tragic and that it's just an option people have, whether I like it or not is irrelavant. I don't like suicide. I don't advocate it. I'm just stating that people have such an option, I guess.

I can't support someones right to take their own life simply because I don't think they REALLY know what they're missing out on by doing it.

We all die eventually and that will come when it comes. If you honestly feel you can't cope at the moment that can change (and has changed with many people I know).

Again who knows, this might be heaven compared to what comes next.

 

[zombieharlot]

Sorry dude, I completely forgot about it. It's selfish from both perspectives in most cases. At the same time, in the case of family members it's USUALLY unselfish.

There's a bond between families that I'd like to think is the Greek love "Agape". Agape is "Selfless Love" where we wish only the best for one another in life in an unselfish way, and do what we can to help in this regard. If a family member took their own life without even talking about it with their family and asking for their help... well then that IS selfish.

The family is left wondering what could have been done, knowing in their hearts they could have done something but weren't given the time or opportunity.

Well, before turning to family, one should ultimately turn to a professional first.

And to present a point that many people have a hard time understanding or accepting, selflessness is a form of selfishness. You only do things for others because it in turn makes you yourself feel good.

 

[ChrisP]

Well, before turning to family, one should ultimately turn to a professional first.

I disagree. I've seen several professionals and they were all utterly useless. My family were instrumental, and were instrumental in the case of everyone I know who's beaten this sort of thing. Most pro's in this area will even say that too. Family is CRITICAL to create hope.

And to present a point that many people have a hard time understanding or accepting, selflessness is a form of selfishness. You only do things for others because it in turn makes you yourself feel good.

No, that's not what Agape is. You do it because you love other person and you want to see them happy. Your own feelings and needs shouldn't factor in, or it's not agape or selflessness. What your talking about is Feaux-selflessness. Sure there often is some emotional payback for agape, but you don't do those things for people expecting a payoff.


/goes to bed.

Sorry guys it's late.

 

[standing_alone]

Sorry, that was poorly worded it wasn't specific. My point is we say we care, but city society is no longer interested. There's no sense of "community" in most urban environments now.

Oh, I see. And I agree that there is no longer a sense of "community," but then again, I don't ever remember there being a time where there was a sense of "community" where I live, save the immediate weeks and months after 9/11/01 that fizzled out soon enough. We live in a very impersonal society.

I can't support someones right to take their own life simply because I don't think they REALLY know what they're missing out on by doing it.

I support a person's right to end their own life though I dislike the act itself and if they came to me, I would strongly discourage suicide. It's not like whenever anyone feels down, I'm standing there cheering them on to kill themself. I'd never do that (unless it's someone from the Bush Administration ).

We all die eventually and that will come when it comes. If you honestly feel you can't cope at the moment that can change (and has changed with many people I know).

You'll find no argument from me here on this point.

Again who knows, this might be heaven compared to what comes next.

And it may be hell compared to what comes next - if anything even does come next.

As I've said, I don't want people to kill themselves, I just respect that it is a decision they have, though one I disagree with and don't advocate (though I will defend in debates such as this ).