Supersessionism and beyond - Can Christianity meaningfully address religious pluralism?

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks. It's been nagging at me for awhile.

I've come to appreciate the Catholic Church a great deal over the last year or so. If I ever became affiliated to a Church it would be Catholic for certain.

How come the move back to Catholicism?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I've come to appreciate the Catholic Church a great deal over the last year or so. If I ever became affiliated to a Church it would be Catholic for certain.

It's a good choice. I actually don't go to a Catholic parish anymore because I disagree with them on various things and my gender identity as a trans man likely won't be respected, while still holding to much of the theology and dogma. I go to an Episcopal parish when I attend church. But I identify as Catholic in a general sense. The Orthodox Church is a great choice, too, especially if you want to see ancient Christianity in action to a great extent.

 

[Harel13]

And, I think their prophet has alternative stories about some of them.

A recent discovery for me was that Abdu'l Baha considered Sarah to have been Abraham's aunt, something that doesn't appear in either the Torah or the Quran. I made a thread on that and Adrian was kind enough to explain that, yes, Abdu'l Baha seems to have had a different tradition/secret divine knowledge that Sarah was Abraham's aunt.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But certainly, though God is present, they were still authored by men. In this world, God most often chooses to work through human beings.

As you have offered, that God often chooses to work through a human being, when such a claim is made by a person, what does your faith say we must do to determine the Truth of that claim?

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

However there's certainly evidence in regards the historicity of Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad.

I see Krishna as a purely mythological character.

.. when such a claim is made by a person, what does your faith say we must do to determine the Truth of that claim?

Agree or don't. In any case, no one in Abrahamic religions has ever provided any evidence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Agree or don't. In any case, no one in Abrahamic religions has ever provided any evidence.

That is the choice.

The Jewish Faith is built upon such evidence, God's Message through the Prophets, the foundation of Faith in One God, in a progression of scriptures to Moses.

Then the Jews say the revelation ended, but did it?

Yes that is the choices we face.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I see Krishna as a purely mythological character.

Maybe. I doubt if many of your fellow Hindus share that view.

According to Guy Beck, "most scholars of Hinduism and Indian history accept the historicity of Krishna—that he was a real male person, whether human or divine, who lived on Indian soil by at least 1000 BCE and interacted with many other historical persons within the cycles of the epic and puranic histories." Yet, Beck also notes that there is an "enormous number of contradictions and discrepancies surrounding the chronology of Krishna's life as depicted in the Sanskrit canon."[139]

Lanvanya Vemsani states that Krishna can be inferred to have lived between 3227 BCE – 3102 BCE from the Puranas.[140] A number of scholars, such as A. K. Bansal, B. V. Raman places Krishna's birth year as 3228 BCE.[141][142] A paper[which?] presented in a conference in 2004 by a group of archaeologists, religious scholars and astronomers from Somnath Trust of Gujarat, which was organised at Prabhas Patan, the supposed location of the where Krishna spent his last moments, fixes the death of Sri Krishna on 18 February 3102 BC at the age of 125 years and 7 months.

Krishna - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is the choice.

Yes, to accept truth or not is a choice. It is not easy to accept truth. It requires a lot of courage.

Maybe. I doubt if many of your fellow Hindus share that view.

Yeah, that is correct. But the truth is not established by the numbers (large or small ). Otherwise 2.4 billion accept Christianity, 1.8 billion Islam and 1.2 billion Hinduism (Major religious groups - Wikipedia).

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, that is correct. But the truth is not established by the numbers (large or small ). Otherwise 2.4 billion accept Christianity, 1.8 billion Islam and 1.2 billion Hinduism (Major religious groups - Wikipedia).

I agree that strength of numbers doesn’t equate to truth. We need to pursue objective lines of enquiry to distinguish truth from falsehood. I would see Krishna as having been a real man who walked the earth but accounts of His life have been exaggerated and mythologised. Its very hard to establish historicity with an historic character, even more recent religious figures such as Christ and Muhammad let alone some five thousand years ago. They were mythologised too.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why should you see Krishna as having been a real man who walked the earth and not Herakles, Thor, Odin or Gilgamesh?
You people (the theists) have this 'not-so-good' habit of believing things without any evidence and on magic, prophecies, cures with prayers, etc.; and of course, the lovey-dovey God (Islam does not claim its Allah to be lovey-dovey. He is the tough one. He sees all). How many people have been saved in the Americas and Europe in the Covid-19 rampage with prayers??

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As you have offered, that God often chooses to work through a human being, when such a claim is made by a person, what does your faith say we must do to determine the Truth of that claim?

Regards Tony

I'm not interested really in what non-Jews do to evaluate the truth claims of the religious texts. As a Jew, I am interested in my own covenant with God. But since you asked, I think that non-Jews should examine their texts using modern textual criticism and valid history.

My problem with Baha'i is that they make historical claims that they cannot true, that are simply made up out of whole cloth. It is not the same for Jews because 1. our claim are lost in antiquity and the issues cannot be addressed and 2. our covenant, our identity as Jews does not depend on the Torah being 100% factually true (my take on things). Baha'i scriptures also make errors in logic, ascribing meaning to things that are obviously just coincidental and unrelated.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Baha'is haven't composed a book where we add the Hebrew Bible, New Testament and the Baha'i Writings together. We simply have our own scriptures based on the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. So we haven't co-opted anyone's scriptures and claimed them as our own. We do however believe the Torah, Gospel and Quran are all Revelations from the same God who Revealed Himself through the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I have had conversations with many good Baha'is here in the forum, and actually it does seem that you accept and build on the prophets in the Tanakh. However, you put your own and very definitely non-Jewish spin on the interpretation, just as Christians do. Not wanting to start a debate, but just to illustrate with an example, Jews have Messianic prophecies that say the Messiah will be David, meaning he will rule Israel from Jerusalem. Baha'is have a very different interpretation, and you all definitely don't believe any Messiah will rule from Jerusalem in any sort of earthly governmental fashion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In my encounters down the years with some of the more fundamentalist of our Evangelical friends, I've been called quite the few things myself, despite being a fellow Trinitarian (and thus having, in theory, the same conception of God as they do).

I agree. I've seen Evangelicals be absolutely vicious to Catholics in forums more than any single other group (even Jews and Mormons). To me as a Jew this is curious, since all of you believe in Jesus. I don't that level of bigotry against Catholics on this forum,though, thank goodness.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not interested really in what non-Jews do to evaluate the truth claims of the religious texts. As a Jew, I am interested in my own covenant with God. But since you asked, I think that non-Jews should examine their texts using modern textual criticism and valid history.

My problem with Baha'i is that they make historical claims that they cannot true, that are simply made up out of whole cloth. It is not the same for Jews because 1. our claim are lost in antiquity and the issues cannot be addressed and 2. our covenant, our identity as Jews does not depend on the Torah being 100% factually true (my take on things). Baha'i scriptures also make errors in logic, ascribing meaning to things that are obviously just coincidental and unrelated.

Could we agree the One God is all knowing, all wise, all omnipotent?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That is the choice.

The Jewish Faith is built upon such evidence, God's Message through the Prophets, the foundation of Faith in One God, in a progression of scriptures to Moses.

Then the Jews say the revelation ended, but did it?

Yes that is the choices we face.

Regards Tony

The progression is easy to see within Judaism. The story begins with God creating Adam goes on through the generations of people leading to Moses. The Jewish story from their continues with several prophets and kings.

Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith add themselves into that progression. But when did Hinduism and Buddhism get tied into the progression? They've been going along parallel, but not part of the Jewish progression.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe. I doubt if many of your fellow Hindus share that view.

According to Guy Beck, "most scholars of Hinduism and Indian history accept the historicity of Krishna—that he was a real male person, whether human or divine, who lived on Indian soil by at least 1000 BCE and interacted with many other historical persons within the cycles of the epic and puranic histories." Yet, Beck also notes that there is an "enormous number of contradictions and discrepancies surrounding the chronology of Krishna's life as depicted in the Sanskrit canon."[139]

Lanvanya Vemsani states that Krishna can be inferred to have lived between 3227 BCE – 3102 BCE from the Puranas.[140] A number of scholars, such as A. K. Bansal, B. V. Raman places Krishna's birth year as 3228 BCE.[141][142] A paper[which?] presented in a conference in 2004 by a group of archaeologists, religious scholars and astronomers from Somnath Trust of Gujarat, which was organised at Prabhas Patan, the supposed location of the where Krishna spent his last moments, fixes the death of Sri Krishna on 18 February 3102 BC at the age of 125 years and 7 months.

Krishna - Wikipedia

But, like Jesus, do Baha'i believe the "legends and myths" surrounding the life of Krishna? Like playing flute for the Gopis and being Arguna's charioteer and being as incarnation of one of the Hindu Gods? So, like the historical Jesus, what would be left of the historical Krishna? Or, does that miss the point? Are these people supposed to be and need to be bigger than life God/men?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, to accept truth or not is a choice. It is not easy to accept truth. It requires a lot of courage.Yeah, that is correct. But the truth is not established by the numbers (large or small ). Otherwise 2.4 billion accept Christianity, 1.8 billion Islam and 1.2 billion Hinduism (Major religious groups - Wikipedia).

And if we break it down even more... how many accept that Jesus is God and rose from the dead? How many believe Krishna is an Avatar and teaches that reincarnation is true? And how many Baha'is believe Jesus is God and rose from the dead? And how many Baha'is believe Krishna is an Avatar and taught that reincarnation is true? I'd be surprised if any Baha'i believed those things about Jesus and Krishna.

So... what do they believe about them? Not much. So a Baha'i doesn't even believe in the Krishna of the Hindus. They believe in a Baha'i version of Krishna. And need him to be real to be part of their progression from one religion to the next. And again, Baha'is believe all people in all religions should love each other and be as one... and respect the beliefs of others... Unless those beliefs don't agree with what Baha'u'llah has said is true about that other religion. Then a Baha'i is obligated to "correct" those people about their own religion. That way we will all agree and all religions will finally all be one.

 

[CG Didymus]

Could we agree the One God is all knowing, all wise, all omnipotent?

Regards Tony

You might have to break that down some more too. Can we all agree that there is a Spiritual reality, some say it is one God, some many. No? Let's break it down some more. Can we all agree that we all have different beliefs and ideas about what is the Truth, but we are all humans and have to share this planet. Can we find away to get along without acting as if our beliefs are the only right ones or best ones?

 

[Aupmanyav]

But Bahaollah. And Bahaollah gave the responsibility to explain what he said to his son, whom he called the master. His son gave the responsibility to guide the Bahais to his grandson, who was called the guide. So, Bahaollah, an Iranian preacher of 19th Century who did not know anything beyond Tanakh, Injeel and Quran available in his time and place and Arabic language, knew all. All the rest in the world are wrong. What they all believe needs a correction, and the correction is that Bahaollah was the manifestation (avatara) of Allah. Practically no difference between Allah and his manifestation.
All revealed religions are 'Napkin religions' since they and those who started them do not give any evidence whatsoever. 'Revealed' actually means fake.
'Progressive revelation' actually means 'progressive fakery'.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The progression is easy to see within Judaism. The story begins with God creating Adam goes on through the generations of people leading to Moses. The Jewish story from their continues with several prophets and kings.

Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith add themselves into that progression. But when did Hinduism and Buddhism get tied into the progression? They've been going along parallel, but not part of the Jewish progression.

I see God added Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and all other branches.

That the Jews have not accepted this could be possible, to date, to me that is foretold. The return of theJews to the Holy land is triggered by events foretold.

I see it has unfolded as predicted and every person on this planet can now have that same choice, no one is excluded in this modern age.

Regards Tony