Supersessionism and beyond - Can Christianity meaningfully address religious pluralism?

[Dawnofhope]

Have you answered the question about the "immaculacy" of Mary yet?

I answered the question earlier in the thread.

Immaculate conception for Baha'is means a conception that is immaculate (in this instance virginal), not the doctrine of immaculate conception as espoused by the Catholic Church. The word immaculate means spotless, clean or perfect.

Definition of IMMACULATE

Baha'is believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. We don't believe in the doctrine of 'original sin' as the Catholics do. We do however see Mary as being an outstanding woman of the Christian dispensation.

Well that's a nice paraphrase of the somebody. Who was it Abdul Baha'? And if religions really did that, the world would be a great place. But... it isn't.

It was ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that is correct.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that religion should be like a healing medicine causing love and unity between peoples. If it does the opposite and causes estrangement and hatred, then that religion is no religion. Instead of being a healing medicine it is a deadly poison. It is noble and a truly religious act in the sight of God to leave such a religion.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 158-160

Is the world really that bad?

Lots of religions were forced upon the people, and they had to obey. It promoted the status quo. Some religions had strange beliefs about the "Gods", and believed their Gods had to be appeased by human or animal sacrifices. The Gods of one people guided them and helped them in battle against other people that had different Gods and beliefs. One people would "colonize" an area and force the native people to stop practicing their old religion and to take on the invaders religion. To promote an ever advancing exploitation of people and their lands.

So... it would be nice if that was what religions did. But they don't. So is it better to have no religion? I doubt it. People would probably be worse off. At least with religion some people feel guilty about what their ancestors have done in the name of religion. But, since pretty much every religion has been the source of problems, does the Baha'i Faith recommend getting rid of those bad religions and only keep the good ones? Which are what? The Baha'i Faith? No. I think most of the major religions are getting better but aren't perfect... including the Baha'is.

Hey, its a work in progress for us all. It is better to have no religion than the wrong religion though. It would be a tough road to eliminate all the negative in all religions. The Baha’i community can only work on themselves and work with our communities towards common aims.

Yes, Christianity brought changes to Judaism, but what did it do for the other religions in far away places? By the time Christianity reached some of them, Islam was already here. And that "guidance" was all the people of the Earth needed for over a thousand years? But, going back to Christianity, what was the guidance the Church was giving to the people? Most of what early Christianity taught is not true according to Baha'is... things like Satan, original sin and that thing about Jesus being God. That's not guidance. If the Baha'is are correct, that was misinformation.

Some aspects of the Christian message have outlived its usefulness after two thousand years. That doesn’t mean we should reject the Christian message in its entirety. As stated, religion needs to change with the times to take account of a more comprehensive view of the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

Immaculate conception for Baha'is means a conception that is immaculate (in this instance virginal), not the doctrine of immaculate conception as espoused by the Catholic Church. The word immaculate means spotless, clean or perfect.

Definition of IMMACULATE

Baha'is believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. We don't believe in the doctrine of 'original sin' as the Catholics do. We do however see Mary as being an outstanding woman of the Christian dispensation.

Yeah, I wouldn't call a virgin "immaculate". And, as you know, I put the virgin birth story in the probable myth category.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that religion should be like a healing medicine causing love and unity between peoples. If it does the opposite and causes estrangement and hatred, then that religion is no religion. Instead of being a healing medicine it is a deadly poison. It is noble and a truly religious act in the sight of God to leave such a religion.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 158-160

Is the world really that bad?

Yes, the world is that bad. You don't think it's that bad? But we all know what horrible things have been done, because some religions take their beliefs to the extreme and impose their beliefs on others and even kill those that won't convert. And, we all know that those beliefs aren't all that perfect. In fact, some people don't believe that those beliefs came from an all-knowing all-loving God. I usually use the Inquisition as an example. Christians torturing and killing Jews for not believing in Christianity... a Christianity that said that Jesus was God. So those that did convert left their religion for a religion that taught, what Baha'is believe is, a false doctrine.

I have complained a lot about the argumentative and, what seems to me, an attitude of superiority that some Baha'is have. I feel they have not helped heal the wounds and misunderstandings between the different religions, but have actually pushed people even further away. You have changed a lot. Loverofhumanity has been spectacular in showing kindness, understanding and humility in how he presents the Faith.

I know that we all are not perfect, and we all are getting better, but, like Abdul Baha said, I think it's up to Baha'is to try and find the few things, or even the one thing, that helps bring unity between the people in the other religions. To me, it's more like having the attitude of being able to honestly say... "I see where you are coming from. And I respect your beliefs. But for me, as a Baha'i, I have found that the Baha'i Faith's answer is important to consider..." Rather than... "No your religion has misinterpreted things, added false things into the religion... Your religion is a thing of the past. It no longer is relevant..."

Both answers can be basically saying the same thing, but it's the attitude. You have done it and are doing it. And, of course, you still get some of us having bad attitudes towards you and the Baha'i Faith, but I think it's going to have to be the Baha'is that take the high road. It's the Baha'is that are going to have to promote respect and unity between the different religions.

Some aspects of the Christian message have outlived its usefulness after two thousand years. That doesn’t mean we should reject the Christian message in its entirety. As stated, religion needs to change with the times to take account of a more comprehensive view of the world.

After all those nice things I said about you? Really? "Outlived its usefulness"? Now a nice way of saying that is... "What is a 2000 year old message have to do with what's happening today? Get a clue and move on." No wait... okay maybe your way wasn't that bad.

But now to comment on that. All the major religions have sects that are changing with the times. Liberal sects of all of them are almost saying the same things a Baha'i would say. But, we all know that certain sects of Christianity has a message that has a lock on its followers that causes them to not want to nor seek to be "one" with the other religions. However, I do think they are justified in believing as they do, because the NT and their interpretation of the Jewish Bible leads them to think that Jesus hasn't come yet and is due to arrive soon.

They aren't going to change with the times. They believe the world is a wicked, evil place and is going to be destroyed. They also believe in Satan and that Jesus is going to descend from the sky. Some of them believe in a literal 6 day creation. They don't believe in evolution. They probably don't care about climate change. They might even believe that God is sending storms and pandemics to the people of the Earth in judgement for their disbelief. Despite, all their beliefs that others find silly, the world is crumbling in a way that could be seen to be fitting with what is prophesied in Revelation.

That is why I keep asking over and over again... how Baha'is interpret things in Revelation and how they interpret the resurrection of Jesus. These things have to be clear and persuasive. They aren't. With new people asking and questioning things about the Baha'i Faith, I often ask the same questions again, so the new posters will better understand what the Baha'i say and believe about the resurrection and things in Revelation. I can imagine some Baha'is are getting tired of it, but I think it's important to get those beliefs out front. So they know where Baha'is are coming from. Too often, Baha'is can avoid those things and say, "Oh, yes... we believe in Jesus." No, it's not the same Jesus. The Jesus Baha'is believe in is dead. He did not rise from the dead. And he is not part of a Trinity.

Anyway, thanks again for your threads and your opinions and answers.

 

[ManSinha]

@adrian009

Strictly OT

I have taken Trialblazer's arguments apart piece by piece in many posts - she makes IMO dishonest and disingenuous statements that contradict themselves as an example "God wants us to know him and love him" followed by "No one can know what God wants" in another post - I suppose she has a purple phone in her home that rings directly to God?

The issue that @CG Didymus highlights is also something I have found on these forums - both Trailblazer and Tony - like to bring up Baha'i stuff every chance they get - I outright called it proselytizing - Tony has been slapped down a number of times and then he retreats into his "be well and happy and healthy" schtick.

In one post Trailblazer called it "a revolutionary new religion for modern times" I was tempted to ask her what was so revolutionary about a 150 year old religion that prescribed how much dowry should be paid in a marriage - I also wanted to ask her if dowry had been part of her marriage contract - but I did not

Why in the world, when your faith professes equality of all humans is the UHJ limited to males only? - That is a throwback to ancient times not a sign of "modernity" IMO

Admittedly to me as an outsider - the Baha'i faith has nothing new to offer that the dharmic faiths have not already put forth whether 3500 years ago or 350 years ago. There are other issues - the faith says it welcomes everyone and yet a casual internet search finds those disenfranchised for not toeing the line - that is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

Also the faith's closeness to Islam (which I consider a religion whose time has passed us by) is discomforting to say the least

Also the proclaiming of the truth about Jesus and then hedging that by denying portions of his story seems disingenuous to me

Also you mentioned personally in a post somewhere that you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God - with so many issues in the Bible being debunked as fairy tales - how can you hold on to that belief?

I do not believe Bahai'ism will ever take off more than convert a few misguided souls that do not know better - in fact I would wager if the Baha'i converts were introduced to Sanatan Dharma - they would be more enticed by what the latter had to offer

The final turn off again IMO is the claim to be the return of prophets / figures of multiple religions - you can never square that with those of other religions that plainly scoff at these claims. Whether right, wrong or indifferent - that is, for me, the final nail in the coffin and leans towards the epithet of "charlatan" more than messenger.

I know this is a harsh critique - for which I apologize - I had a good impression of Baha'i's from those I had interacted with in my previous workplace but this forum and the behavior of the individuals I mentioned above has ruined it for me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The issue that @CG Didymus highlights is also something I have found on these forums - both Trailblazer and Tony - like to bring up Baha'i stuff every chance they get - I outright called it proselytizing - Tony has been slapped down a number of times and then he retreats into his "be well and happy and healthy" schtick.

No worries, I will always hop up again, a good slap never hurt any one.

I see it differently than you, as I see, unlike many, that I am part of the world's problems as well as the potential remedy and as such work on myself to make that change.

"There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 18, 1943)

I can only deliver, many shoot the Messenger and fail to see the Message that was on offer.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009

Strictly OT

I have taken Trialblazer's arguments apart piece by piece in many posts - she makes IMO dishonest and disingenuous statements that contradict themselves as an example "God wants us to know him and love him" followed by "No one can know what God wants" in another post - I suppose she has a purple phone in her home that rings directly to God?

The issue that @CG Didymus highlights is also something I have found on these forums - both Trailblazer and Tony - like to bring up Baha'i stuff every chance they get - I outright called it proselytizing - Tony has been slapped down a number of times and then he retreats into his "be well and happy and healthy" schtick.

In one post Trailblazer called it "a revolutionary new religion for modern times" I was tempted to ask her what was so revolutionary about a 150 year old religion that prescribed how much dowry should be paid in a marriage - I also wanted to ask her if dowry had been part of her marriage contract - but I did not

Why in the world, when your faith professes equality of all humans is the UHJ limited to males only? - That is a throwback to ancient times not a sign of "modernity" IMO

Admittedly to me as an outsider - the Baha'i faith has nothing new to offer that the dharmic faiths have not already put forth whether 3500 years ago or 300 years ago. There are other issues - the faith says it welcomes everyone and yet a casual internet search finds those disenfranchised for not toeing the line - that is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

Also the faith's closeness to Islam (which I consider a religion whose time has passed us by) is discomforting to say the least

Also the proclaiming of the truth about Jesus and then hedging that by denying portions of his story seems disingenuous to me

Also you mentioned personally in a post somewhere that you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God - with so many issues in the Bible being debunked as fairy tales - how can you hold on to that belief?

I do not believe Bahai'ism will ever take off more than convert a few misguided souls that do not know better - in fact I would wager if the Baha'i converts were introduced to Sanatan Dharma - they would be more enticed by what the latter had to offer

The final turn off again IMO is the claim to be the return of prophets / figures of multiple religions - you can never square that with those of other religions that plainly scoff at these claims. Whether right, wrong or indifferent - that is, for me, the final nail in the coffin and leans towards the epithet of "charlatan" more than messenger.

I know this is a harsh critique - for which I apologize - I had a good impression of Baha'i's from those I had interacted with in my previous workplace but this forum and the behavior the individuals I mentioned above has ruined it for me.

As you say, your post is off topic. Was there any of this you wished to discuss with me?

 

[ManSinha]

As you say, your post is off topic. Was there any of this you wished to discuss with me?

All of the points I made - but it would have to be a separate thread

 

[CG Didymus]

"There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

How many Baha'is do that? I was with my Baha'i friends on Mass Teaching projects, and their weren't very many that participated. But they went door to door. That's so Mormon and Jehovah Witness of them.

I can only deliver, many shoot the Messenger and fail to see the Message that was on offer.

The message is part of the problem. Baha'is don't have the same beliefs as people in other religions. But those people are then told it is because they've misinterpreted their own Scriptures. No matter how nice you word it, you are still telling them what they believe is wrong.

Then there is the messenger. Some aren't as respectful and courteous as others. I been to many a fireside back in the 70's, the Baha'is were always courteous. But, the people that came to a fireside had an interest in learning about the Faith. Here, you are talking to people that believe strongly in their religion and are offended by someone telling them how wrong they are.

 

[Dawnofhope]

All of the points I made - but it would have to be a separate thread

Its quite an extensive list of criticisms. I do wonder what you are hoping to achieve by having a discussion with me? Are you wishing to convince me that I should resign from the Baha'i Faith and consider another religion? Do you want to have your concerns about the Baha'i Faith more widely shared among the general membership of RF to warn others? Do you want to criticize me personally for getting involved and promoting the Baha'i Faith?

If so I would invite you to consider the forum mission and two rules in particular.

RF Rules

RF MISSION STATEMENT

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.

3. Trolling and Bullying
Where Rule 1 covers personal attacks, Rule 3 governs other behaviors and content that can generally be described as being a jerk. Unacceptable behaviors and content include:

1) Content (whether words or images) that most people would find needlessly offensive, especially when such content is posted just to get a rise out of somebody and/or is not part of a reasoned argument.

2) Defamation, slander, or misrepresentation of a member's beliefs/arguments, or that of a particular group, culture, or religion. This includes altering the words of another member to change their meaning when using the quote feature.

3) Antagonism, bullying, or harassment - including but not limited to personal attacks, slander, and misrepresentation - of a member across multiple content areas of the forums. Repeatedly targeting or harassing members of particular groups will also be considered bullying.

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.


I do not mind having a discussion with you about the Baha'i Faith along as it is civil and respectful. I have no desire to convert you to the Baha'i Faith and can clearly see it does not interest you. I would simply explain how I personally view the issues you raise realizing we would need to agree to disagree.

You are welcome to start a thread and I think it would be best in the one on one debates/discussion section.

One-on-One Debate Discussion

The danger of having it in the general debates section is it becomes a free for all and we end up with a prolonged debate that generates more heat than light. Up to you though.

I will leave it to you to start the thread and tag me.

Best wishes
Adrian

 

[CG Didymus]

As you say, your post is off topic. Was there any of this you wished to discuss with me?

The title said "Supersessionism and beyond" Are we stretching the "beyond" part too far?

 

[ManSinha]

Are you wishing to convince me that I should resign from the Baha'i Faith and consider another religion? Do you want to have your concerns about the Baha'i Faith more widely shared among the general membership of RF to warn others? Do you want to criticize me personally for getting involved and promoting the Baha'i Faith?

Actually none of the above - I just wish to understand why Baha'i's think their religion is the "latest and greatest" and "A day will come when everyone will know Baha'u'llah" direct quotes from posts made by other Bahai's when they fail to see that what they are offering is just as riddled with issues as any other organized religion

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually none of the above - I just wish to understand why Baha'i's think their religion is the "latest and greatest" and "A day will come when everyone will know Baha'u'llah" direct quotes from posts made by other Bahai's when they fail to see that what they are offering is just as riddled with issues as any other organized religion

That's good to know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here, you are talking to people that believe strongly in their religion and are offended by someone telling them how wrong they are.

Do you think that would be unique to RF?

Do you think that is unique to Message of Baha'u'llah? After all, a new message is given by God, as men have got it wrong, it is never given and every one gets a pat on the back, all that is recorded in the holy books.

You would know that Baha'i come from all Faiths and backgrounds and that they have had the beliefs others still embrace and also had to confront what Baha'u'llah has offered.

In the end one responds to that, or any Message as they choose to.

One thing you will note, many more read RF than may participate. Who knows what they think about what is offered and what they choose?

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

The title said "Supersessionism and beyond" Are we stretching the "beyond" part too far?

Hey C G, busy day with work and just finished. Our discussion does include looking at Christianity in quite some depth so its fine. If we started talking exclusively about the Baha’i Faith in a thread about Christianity I would feel uncomfortable.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, I wouldn't call a virgin "immaculate". And, as you know, I put the virgin birth story in the probable myth category.

I wouldn’t call a virgin immaculate either, but a birth from virgin women....

I appreciate you view the virgin birth as a myth.

Yes, the world is that bad. You don't think it's that bad? But we all know what horrible things have been done, because some religions take their beliefs to the extreme and impose their beliefs on others and even kill those that won't convert. And, we all know that those beliefs aren't all that perfect. In fact, some people don't believe that those beliefs came from an all-knowing all-loving God. I usually use the Inquisition as an example. Christians torturing and killing Jews for not believing in Christianity... a Christianity that said that Jesus was God. So those that did convert left their religion for a religion that taught, what Baha'is believe is, a false doctrine.

I have complained a lot about the argumentative and, what seems to me, an attitude of superiority that some Baha'is have. I feel they have not helped heal the wounds and misunderstandings between the different religions, but have actually pushed people even further away. You have changed a lot. Loverofhumanity has been spectacular in showing kindness, understanding and humility in how he presents the Faith.

I know that we all are not perfect, and we all are getting better, but, like Abdul Baha said, I think it's up to Baha'is to try and find the few things, or even the one thing, that helps bring unity between the people in the other religions. To me, it's more like having the attitude of being able to honestly say... "I see where you are coming from. And I respect your beliefs. But for me, as a Baha'i, I have found that the Baha'i Faith's answer is important to consider..." Rather than... "No your religion has misinterpreted things, added false things into the religion... Your religion is a thing of the past. It no longer is relevant..."

Both answers can be basically saying the same thing, but it's the attitude. You have done it and are doing it. And, of course, you still get some of us having bad attitudes towards you and the Baha'i Faith, but I think it's going to have to be the Baha'is that take the high road. It's the Baha'is that are going to have to promote respect and unity between the different religions.

You have an excellent point about the way we phrase things and our attitudes. I enjoy having you around C G to bring the Baha’is to account and ask us challenging questions.

After all those nice things I said about you? Really? "Outlived its usefulness"? Now a nice way of saying that is... "What is a 2000 year old message have to do with what's happening today? Get a clue and move on." No wait... okay maybe your way wasn't that bad.

But now to comment on that. All the major religions have sects that are changing with the times. Liberal sects of all of them are almost saying the same things a Baha'i would say. But, we all know that certain sects of Christianity has a message that has a lock on its followers that causes them to not want to nor seek to be "one" with the other religions. However, I do think they are justified in believing as they do, because the NT and their interpretation of the Jewish Bible leads them to think that Jesus hasn't come yet and is due to arrive soon.

They aren't going to change with the times. They believe the world is a wicked, evil place and is going to be destroyed. They also believe in Satan and that Jesus is going to descend from the sky. Some of them believe in a literal 6 day creation. They don't believe in evolution. They probably don't care about climate change. They might even believe that God is sending storms and pandemics to the people of the Earth in judgement for their disbelief. Despite, all their beliefs that others find silly, the world is crumbling in a way that could be seen to be fitting with what is prophesied in Revelation.

That is why I keep asking over and over again... how Baha'is interpret things in Revelation and how they interpret the resurrection of Jesus. These things have to be clear and persuasive. They aren't. With new people asking and questioning things about the Baha'i Faith, I often ask the same questions again, so the new posters will better understand what the Baha'i say and believe about the resurrection and things in Revelation. I can imagine some Baha'is are getting tired of it, but I think it's important to get those beliefs out front. So they know where Baha'is are coming from. Too often, Baha'is can avoid those things and say, "Oh, yes... we believe in Jesus." No, it's not the same Jesus. The Jesus Baha'is believe in is dead. He did not rise from the dead. And he is not part of a Trinity.

Anyway, thanks again for your threads and your opinions and answers.

You’re welcome

 

[e.r.m.]

In this thread I’d like to explore Christianity’s capacity to adapt to modernity generally and religious pluralism in particular. The heart of the problem for Christianity and a Bible based theology is the existence of other religious and non-religious world views whose adherents live outstanding lives worthy of admiration.

At one end of the spectrum are theological narratives that view a particular framework within Christianity as being the exclusive truth and THE only true path to God. All other paths are considered false including many other paths under the umbrella of Christianity itself.

At the other end of the spectrum are theological approaches the employ historical-critical methods that more readily accept the validity of approaches to life outside a Christian framework. A Baha’i approach is an example I’m most familiar with along with Post-Vatican II Catholicism and more liberal and modern Protestant Churches.

A critical turning point in Christianity’s move towards more pluralistic theologies arose after WW II in the aftermath of the holocaust. Theological approaches moved away from long held doctrines such as supersessionism.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

However it is apparent with the rise of fundamentalism in most mainstream religions that a vocal minority of Christians insist on the exclusive nature of Christianity for salvation.

1/ So can Christianity meaningfully embrace religious pluralism?

2/ To what extent do doctrines such as supersessionism prevent this movement.

3/ If you are a Christian what direction would you like to see Christianity move and why? If you are not a Christian does it matter to you whether Christianity retains its traditional exclusivity or moves towards embracing religious pluralism? Why?

Any questions or constructive comments welcome? If you’ve made it this far, thanks for dropping by.

The answer is simple. Biblically based theology and pluralism are mutually exclusive. If a group within Christianity embraces pluralism, then they have rejected and departed from Biblically based theology.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then there is the messenger. Some aren't as respectful and courteous as others. I been to many a fireside back in the 70's, the Baha'is were always courteous. But, the people that came to a fireside had an interest in learning about the Faith.

Here, you are talking to people that believe strongly in their religion and are offended by someone telling them how wrong they are.

Do you think that would be unique to RF?

Do you think that is unique to Message of Baha'u'llah? After all, a new message is given by God, as men have got it wrong, it is never given and every one gets a pat on the back, all that is recorded in the holy books.

In context.. I was comparing Baha'is talking to people face to face at a fireside where the people have come to learn about the Baha'i Faith. Pushing their beliefs unto others is unique to religions that think they have a newer, better and more true message from God. Like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses... but other Christians often get on their soap boxes and start preaching the "word" of the Lord at people.

Why do they do this? Because they believe the NT tells them that without the correct beliefs, people are going to hell and are not saved or some version of that. They feel obligated by their religion to go "preach' the word.

Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

Baha'is are under that same kind of obligation.

You would know that Baha'i come from all Faiths and backgrounds and that they have had the beliefs others still embrace and also had to confront what Baha'u'llah has offered.

People didn't used to have much of a choice. Whole villages, whole tribes, whole cultures, whole empires were expected to follow their religion. Now, we have a choice. Many religions aren't all that appealing to people. Many people are just nominal followers of their religion. Some of those people do go out and try to find some kind of more meaningful religion or spiritual beliefs. The Baha'i Faith is one of them.

Similar to what Christianity did to the Jews, saying that to be a true follower of God, they had to believe in Jesus. But, this new religion based on the NT teachings moved away from the traditional Jewish beliefs and customs. Today, the Baha'i Faith does that with all religions. Baha'is say most all religions were true, but they are no longer relevant. To be a truer, better believer in God, it is necessary for them to recognize this new message from God. If a person doesn't recognize it, and in fact rejects it, that is a problem.

But who wouldn't want to follow the Truth? Who wouldn't want to follow a messenger from God? Who wouldn't want to follow a religion that has come to bring peace and unity to all people in the whole world? So sure, some people in the other religions are going to believe this. But, the question is, how do you treat and interact with that next level of person that is very knowledgeable about their religion and is very satisfied with their religion? Baha'is can't just blurt out that a "New day has come. The Promises One is here" and expect these people to drop their religion and become Baha'is.

Baha'is are going to have to know their stuff. They're going to have to know the Baha'i Faith as well as the other religions. What do they believe and why? What are the contradictory beliefs? What prophecies are they expecting to happen and how do they expect them to be fulfilled? And for sure you're going to get a lot of push back. They are going to fight you all the way. Any weak argument is going to fail. Strong arguments will be challenged. So how do Baha'is treat these people? As lost, hard-headed people that aren't worth the trouble? Or, should Baha'is treat them with respect and kindness?

We've got some smart people here that know their religion and are good people, but they aren't looking to change. And, in some cases, see the Baha'i Faith as a religion that opposes theirs. Should Baha'i continue to argue with them and tell them how wrong they are and how blind they are for not seeing the truth? No, but that's what is happening. The arguments go round and round until someone throws up their hands and quits. The Baha'is have just lost someone that should have been made a friend.

Trailblazer keeps saying that I'm holding Baha'is to a higher standard. Yes. JW's and Fundy Christians are going to do it. Baha'is have to be the peace makers. Baha'is have to be the ones that show that they can live with and respect the beliefs of others. Poor Loverofhumanity has tried to be friendly in some of his recent threads and still gets slammed with negative posts. Why? The seeds have already been sown. People have already got a negative view of Baha'is. Now that it has already been established, how you going to fix it? Loverofhumanity did it by humbling himself and becoming a friend. And, like I said, some people still hit him hard with negative posts. So it won't be easy.

 

[CG Didymus]

The answer is simple. Biblically based theology and pluralism are mutually exclusive. If a group within Christianity embraces pluralism, then they have rejected and departed from Biblically based theology.

I was looking at Romans 11 today where it says that gentiles, by believing in Jesus, are grafted into God's olive tree. And that the Jews that were the true olive tree, had to believe in Jesus to remain part of the tree. Or, they would be broken off. What other verses are there that go into that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Trailblazer keeps saying that I'm holding Baha'is to a higher standard. Yes. JW's and Fundy Christians are going to do it. Baha'is have to be the peace makers. Baha'is have to be the ones that show that they can live with and respect the beliefs of others. Poor Loverofhumanity has tried to be friendly in some of his recent threads and still gets slammed with negative posts. Why? The seeds have already been sown. People have already got a negative view of Baha'is. Now that it has already been established, how you going to fix it? Loverofhumanity did it by humbling himself and becoming a friend. And, like I said, some people still hit him hard with negative posts. So it won't be easy.

This is the critical point CG, that I have been offering. We do not in any way control how any person sees the Baha'i Faith and reacts to it. We are responsible only for our own selves.

It is prophecy in the Baha'i Writings that a time will come when the Churches and Synagogues and Mosques and other Holy places will have the Baha'i Faith condemned from the pulpits. To me It has only just started CG.

When that time comes, people that know the loving intent of the Baha'is, will finally see the hypocrisy of such a stance of the religious leaders and they too will start asking the bigger questions. They will look into the Spirit in their Faith and know what was offered by Baha'allah was in them after all.

This is the Changeless Face of God, all Messengers have faced this opposition, yet look at the Major Faiths and how many people now embrace them. Imagine the future when what Baha'u'llah offers comes to fruition, that is the promise of all Holy Books. A day of the Most Great Peace.

We live in a time of transition where people have to reconnect to the Spirit of Christ and not hold to worldly desires and interpretation.

I will leave you with this thought;

Luke 17:33 "Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it."

That really reflects what becomes of faith when the the Sun sets and why, when it is renewed and the Sun again rises, many give their life to the New Message.

Hold on CG, if RF is any indication of what the world will dish out, we are in for a rough ride and do you see it is the Baha'i that are the Cause? I say it is the Message of Baha'u'llah and that is exactly why it is this prophecy fulfilled;

Malachi 4:5"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

Welcome to that day.

Regards Tony

 

[e.r.m.]

I was looking at Romans 11 today where it says that gentiles, by believing in Jesus, are grafted into God's olive tree. And that the Jews that were the true olive tree, had to believe in Jesus to remain part of the tree. Or, they would be broken off. What other verses are there that go into that?

John 14:6. Acts 4:12. Acts 14:15-17.

We should be respectful and kind to those not in the faith, of course.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The answer is simple. Biblically based theology and pluralism are mutually exclusive. If a group within Christianity embraces pluralism, then they have rejected and departed from Biblically based theology.

Thanks for your post. Christianity is a diverse religion and as noted there is a spectrum of beliefs that would view pluralism as completely consistent with Biblical theology to those like yourself who see a fundamental contradiction. It is easy for those on either side of the spectrum to state those on the opposing side of the spectrum have both rejected and departed from Biblical theology though neither side would view themselves in this light. As you may appreciate I firmly identify with those who believe in biblical religious pluralism.