Suppose evolution was refuted, then what?

[riley2112]

To debate about religion?



How would you like me to do that? Do you have a conscience?
Can't you do anything for yourself?
Do you think that I just 'pluck' my understandings from thin air, or just follow other people without thought?

If you don't agree that there is 'One' superior to mankind, that's your affair..

I don't know what ImmortalFlame thinks , but I think you are mental. just saying, and please understand I just plucked that from thin air. However I am sure that if I was to just follow other people I would find the same conclusion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I think you are mental..

Thanks very much

Maybe I'm "safe" then .. people who are 'mental' will enter 'heaven' without reckoning..
Just saying..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't know about that, I had faith that I could walk again and not only am I walking but I can out run most people I know.

But faith did not lead to that conclusion. Whether you believed or not, you probably would have gotten better, and even then I'm willing to bet your belief wasn't entirely faith based - you undoubtedly had plenty of positive support from physicians, family, etc. who helped you get back on your feet. At least, that's what I'm willing to suppose.

I had faith Angela would marry me , and I am now married.

Again, that probably wasn't based on faith either. Faith did not lead to that conclusion - the fact that you fell in love and asked her to marry you lead to that conclusion. Faith was never a requirement.

Faith have given me the strength to realize truth in a way that would not have been possible any other way.

Explain.

Faith is not always about God. It is about believing something that other tell you is wrong or not going to happen.But faith can give you the strenth to make what you want happen when all else is against you. Come to think of it maybe it does have to do with God.

Faith is what you use to believe something when you have absolutely no valid reason otherwise. Such a thing cannot possibly lead to truth, only confound and confuse an individual on their path to truth. If something is true, you do not need faith to believe, and anything entirely based on faith is simply not worth believing.

 

[JMorris]

Suppose evolution was refuted, then what?

then id have a unicorn to ride, and id play polo with jesus, then we'd fly to the moooooooooooooon!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

To debate about religion?

And yet you "have no need to prove anything to anyone"?

This is a contradiction in your argument. At this point, you're not making any sense - and probably not trying.

How would you like me to do that?

I've not given you any terms. Present whatever evidence you like, how you like.

Do you have a conscience?
Can't you do anything for yourself?
Do you think that I just 'pluck' my understandings from thin air, or just follow other people without thought?

Nope, hence why I'm asking you to support your claims with reasoned evidence, which you claimed to have. If you reached your conclusion through careful study of facts, then present those facts and the methodology of how you reached your conclusion. This should not be such a difficult thing for anyone to do.

If you don't agree that there is 'One' superior to mankind, that's your affair..

So, once again, you claim you are here to "debate religion", but you're just going to brush off or ignore any claims made for verification or validation of your arguments?

You really don't possess any evidence whatsoever, do you? You're just talking nonsense.

 

[riley2112]

But faith did not lead to that conclusion. Whether you believed or not, you probably would have gotten better, and even then I'm willing to bet your belief wasn't entirely faith based - you undoubtedly had plenty of positive support from physicians, family, etc. who helped you get back on your feet. At least, that's what I'm willing to suppose..

The doc told me that the odds of me walking again was not good. But I believed I could , I had faith that I could. Maybe you are right and I would have gotten better any way. But I believe it was that faith that kept me going kept me trying, Then maybe I am just stubborn.

Again, that probably wasn't based on faith either. Faith did not lead to that conclusion - the fact that you fell in love and asked her to marry you lead to that conclusion. Faith was never a requirement.

If you saw me then saw her, well , maybe it was not faith , come to think of it , I think it was a full blown miracle.

Explain.

You have ask me to explain the statement of; .
Faith have given me the strength to realize truth in a way that would not have been possible any other way.
That is very difficult for me to explain to someone . It kind of works like explaining what a roller coaster ride feels like to someone that does not know what a roller coaster is ,(I am not saying you have no knowledge of faith) However, I do not want you to feel that I am just brushing off the question , so here goes. I have faith and I use it to learn more about the God that I worship. I have faith that the God I worship exist. However , because of my faith for the one God , I have kept looking and learning about what could have happen and what looks and feels like a man made story. I feel that some of the Bible is man made for the purpose of gaining power and or gaining control and riches. The only problem with that is the fact of , does that in turn make me some one that is creating a God that fits what I need. If so then my worship, my belief, and the God that I count on is all false. I know this to be correct, But something inside of me feels that there is God out there and my faith keeps me searching for the truth, Maybe the truth is , that no God exist. If that becomes a fact in my mind, OK , I can deal with that , But if God is really truth , then he will be there at the end of my search, if not then he was never the truth to begin with, I guess with the promises of " God let me be better, let me get up and I will serve you , I need to at least make an honest effort to find out if he is there to find. I know , sounds foolish , but it is just how I feel.
[/quote]

 

[riley2112]

Thanks very much

Maybe I'm "safe" then .. people who are 'mental' will enter 'heaven' without reckoning..
Just saying..

God could use you for so many different things if you would just let him, But as the old saying goes , you catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. Just saying. Good luck to you my brother.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The doc told me that the odds of me walking again was not good. But I believed I could , I had faith that I could. Maybe you are right and I would have gotten better any way. But I believe it was that faith that kept me going kept me trying, Then maybe I am just stubborn.

Perhaps. I would contend that there are just as many people whose faith is not rewarded (if not moreso) than those who have experiences to the contrary.

If you saw me then saw her, well , maybe it was not faith , come to think of it , I think it was a full blown miracle.

I think it's a miracle any woman can love any man, really. We're collectively so useless.

You have ask me to explain the statement of; .
Faith have given me the strength to realize truth in a way that would not have been possible any other way.
That is very difficult for me to explain to someone . It kind of works like explaining what a roller coaster ride feels like to someone that does not know what a roller coaster is ,(I am not saying you have no knowledge of faith) However, I do not want you to feel that I am just brushing off the question , so here goes. I have faith and I use it to learn more about the God that I worship. I have faith that the God I worship exist. However , because of my faith for the one God , I have kept looking and learning about what could have happen and what looks and feels like a man made story. I feel that some of the Bible is man made for the purpose of gaining power and or gaining control and riches. The only problem with that is the fact of , does that in turn make me some one that is creating a God that fits what I need. If so then my worship, my belief, and the God that I count on is all false. I know this to be correct, But something inside of me feels that there is God out there and my faith keeps me searching for the truth, Maybe the truth is , that no God exist. If that becomes a fact in my mind, OK , I can deal with that , But if God is really truth , then he will be there at the end of my search, if not then he was never the truth to begin with, I guess with the promises of " God let me be better, let me get up and I will serve you , I need to at least make an honest effort to find out if he is there to find. I know , sounds foolish , but it is just how I feel.

At this stage, I'd just like to point out to Muhammed_Isa that this is a perfect example of how to answer a complex question without being arrogant, presumptive or lacking in self-realization. Honestly, It's a breath of fresh air to have a request answered in such an honest, introspective and enlightening way. Seriously, you've pretty-much given me more hope for humanity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And yet you "have no need to prove anything to anyone"?

Correct ! One can have an interesting conversation without making it 'a contest', and asking others to "prove it" .. "prove it" all the time
ie. that God exists

I've not given you any terms. Present whatever evidence you like, how you like.

What's the subject?
You've been heckling me for so long that I'd have to search through pages..
Why God exists, is certainly not the subject of this thread, but I will say that I'm 100% certain that He does. I'm sure you are frustrated by these type of claims, which is why you ask me to prove it.
I don't keep asking you to prove that He doesn't exist .. I know you'll say that its my job to prove as you haven't made any claims, but that's just a cheap, philosophical 'escape hatch'.

Comparing Almighty God, the Creator of the universe to fairies or goblins etc. is quite pathetic.

So, once again, you claim you are here to "debate religion", but you're just going to brush off or ignore any claims made for verification or validation of your arguments?

No .. but I don't "perform" to order..

You really don't possess any evidence whatsoever, do you?

Don't I? Do you have any evidence? Other than the "I haven't seen yours" argument

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I have said it before, but it bears repeating,
In my opinion, it shows a distinct lack of faith if one finds it necessary to deny or twist logic and known facts in order to "prove" the existence of a deity.

Though I understand your point; from a strongly agnostic standing or a from fidestic one for that matter; it is arguable that logic itself may not be applicable to such concepts.

Personally I think that logic is a useful tool for rational discussion and meaningful debates on such metaphysical concepts, however, for discussion, it is just as valid to point out that it is an unwarranted assumption to hold that logic can be reliably applied to the metaphysical existence.

 

[McBell]

Though I understand your point; from a strongly agnostic standing or a from fidestic one for that matter; it is arguable that logic itself may not be applicable to such concepts.

Seems to me that it is most illogical to use logic (or twist it around) in an attempt to evidence something that is not bound by logic.

Or in other words, your comment here doe snot help their position any.

Personally I think that logic is a useful tool for rational discussion and meaningful debates on such metaphysical concepts, however, for discussion, it is just as valid to point out that it is an unwarranted assumption to hold that logic can be reliably applied to the metaphysical existence.

Which means that anything that strikes a persons fancy is just as "valid" when supported by evidence as when it is not?

 

[McBell]

Comparing Almighty God, the Creator of the universe to fairies or goblins etc. is quite pathetic.

Only to those who take their personal and or emotional attachment to god far to seriously.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Correct ! One can have an interesting conversation without making it 'a contest', and asking others to "prove it" .. "prove it" all the time
ie. that God exists

In other words, you don't know the difference between "debate" and "conversation".

What's the subject?
You've been heckling me for so long that I'd have to search through pages..

And you also don't appear to know the meaning of the word "heckling".

Why God exists, is certainly not the subject of this thread, but I will say that I'm 100% certain that He does. I'm sure you are frustrated by these type of claims, which is why you ask me to prove it.
I don't keep asking you to prove that He doesn't exist .. I know you'll say that its my job to prove as you haven't made any claims, but that's just a cheap, philosophical 'escape hatch'.

No, it isn't. It's how logic works. If you make a claim, you support it with evidence. What is a "cheap philosophical escape hatch" is responding to the request for evidence of your claim by saying "well, give me proof that my claim isn't true!"

Comparing Almighty God, the Creator of the universe to fairies or goblins etc. is quite pathetic.

Then prove that God is real. If you cannot, I don't see any reason why I have to make a distinction between the two, since there is just as much evidence for the existence of fairies or goblins than there is of God. Unless, of course, you can present some.

No .. but I don't "perform" to order..

I'm not asking you to "perform" anything other than supporting your claims with reasoned evidence. So far, all you've done is evade this request horribly. This is indicative of the fact that your stance is based on absolutely nothing whatsoever, and the longer you keep desperately scrambling to avoid this question the more dishonest you look.

Don't I? Do you have any evidence? Other than the "I haven't seen yours" argument

The evidence is pretty clear. You claimed to have evidence, then I asked you to present it several pages ago. Since then you have tried every cheap excuse, logical backflip and nonsense argument in the book to try and avoid presenting any of this evidence whatsoever. This indicates that you are in no hurry to answer the question, and are just trying to defer the answer, which indicates that you do not have an answer.

Ergo, you have no evidence for God. This is true until demonstrated otherwise.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Personally I think that logic is a useful tool for rational discussion and meaningful debates on such metaphysical concepts

Not much point in having a non-meaningful discussion

however, for discussion, it is just as valid to point out that it is an unwarranted assumption to hold that logic can be reliably applied to the metaphysical existence.

There's a difference between logic ( and consequently making meaningful statements ), and apparently being in contradiction of that which we observe (or assume) to be true

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then prove that God is real. If you cannot, I don't see any reason why I have to make a distinction between the two, since there is just as much evidence for the existence of fairies or goblins than there is of God.

Ha ha! If you truly believe that, then you must either be stupid, or be following others like sheep.
How many people believe that fairies are true? Not many, surely? And why would that be?
Do you think that it's because people are aware that they have been 'created' by fiction writers?
[ rhetorical question ]

Now .. I know you will say that say, the Bible, is also fiction, but billions of people have good reason to believe that it isn't ! They recognise truth when they see it!

But the likes of you, think it smart to compare fairies & God, claiming them as identical concepts.
Somebody's wrong here, and I would say that it was YOU (and not billions of believers)

..the longer you keep desperately scrambling to avoid this question the more dishonest you look.

Fine! 'This question' is what the forum's all about .. have I missed something? Is there a post where the existence of God has been "proved" beyond reasonable doubt?
Probably not .. but many are surely very enlightening .. and yet those who deny the existence of God do not perceive. They only perceive how 'smart' they are

This indicates that you are in no hurry to answer the question, and are just trying to defer the answer, which indicates that you do not have an answer.

You are right that I'm in no hurry to 'answer the question' ..
Let's say that I amswered it, in brief of course, as I will still be 'answering the question' for weeks to come unless I'm banned or die or something

You would probably still continue to claim that I have no evidence, because you simply don't recognise truth when you see it
ie. It is NOT possible that we exist without good reason

If it was, then why should there be a reason for anything else, including "my evidence" to make any sense

[SIZE=-1]If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there.[/SIZE]

 

[McBell]

Ha ha! If you truly believe that, then you must either be stupid, or be following others like sheep.
How many people believe that fairies are true? Not many, surely? And why would that be?
Do you think that it's because people are aware that they have been 'created' by fiction writers?
[ rhetorical question ]

Now .. I know you will say that say, the Bible, is also fiction, but billions of people have good reason to believe that it isn't ! They recognise truth when they see it!

But the likes of you, think it smart to compare fairies & God, claiming them as identical concepts.
Somebody's wrong here, and I would say that it was YOU (and not billions of believers)



Fine! 'This question' is what the forum's all about .. have I missed something? Is there a post where the existence of God has been "proved" beyond reasonable doubt?
Probably not .. but many are surely very enlightening .. and yet those who deny the existence of God do not perceive. They only perceive how 'smart' they are



You are right that I'm in no hurry to 'answer the question' ..
Let's say that I amswered it, in brief of course, as I will still be 'answering the question' for weeks to come unless I'm banned or die or something

You would probably still continue to claim that I have no evidence, because you simply don't recognise truth when you see it
ie. It is NOT possible that we exist without good reason

If it was, then why should there be a reason for anything else, including "my evidence" to make any sense

[SIZE=-1]If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there.[/SIZE]

*yawn*
You should get yourself a new tune.
You been singing this old worn out one for long enough everyone now knows you are not going to answer the question.

So really, all you are doing now is reinforcing your dishonesty.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Though I understand your point; from a strongly agnostic standing or a from fidestic one for that matter; it is arguable that logic itself may not be applicable to such concepts.

Well of course, logic does not apply to the use of faith alone.

Personally I think that logic is a useful tool for rational discussion and meaningful debates on such metaphysical concepts, however, for discussion, it is just as valid to point out that it is an unwarranted assumption to hold that logic can be reliably applied to the metaphysical existence.

What does the metaphysical/supernatural have to do with logic?

Are you suggesting that it is logical and reasonable to apply a metaphysical/supernatural "god of the gaps" whenever empirical and objective evidence is lacking?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ha ha! If you truly believe that, then you must either be stupid, or be following others like sheep.

Now who's heckling?

How many people believe that fairies are true? Not many, surely? And why would that be?
Do you think that it's because people are aware that they have been 'created' by fiction writers?

Now .. I know you will say that say, the Bible, is also fiction, but billions of people have good reason to believe that it isn't ! They recognise truth when they see it!

I love the fact that you accused me of "either being stupid or following the others like sheep", then you make an argument that amounts to "lots of people believe it - so it must be true!" You're clearly the bigger sheep.

Also, truth is not determined by popular vote. If the entire world believes something that is wrong, it doesn't make it right.

But the likes of you, think it smart to compare fairies & God, claiming them as identical concepts.
Somebody's wrong here, and I would say that it was YOU (and not billions of believers)

Then prove it. Present evidence of the existence of God.

Fine! 'This question' is what the forum's all about .. have I missed something? Is there a post where the existence of God has been "proved" beyond reasonable doubt?

Nope. That's why I'm asking.

Probably not .. but many are surely very enlightening .. and yet those who deny the existence of God do not perceive. They only perceive how 'smart' they are

How convenient for you.

You are right that I'm in no hurry to 'answer the question' ..
Let's say that I amswered it, in brief of course, as I will still be 'answering the question' for weeks to come unless I'm banned or die or something

You would probably still continue to claim that I have no evidence, because you simply don't recognise truth when you see it
ie. It is NOT possible that we exist without good reason

And why does that good reason have to be, or include in any way, a God?

If it was, then why should there be a reason for anything else, including "my evidence" to make any sense

[SIZE=-1]If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there.[/SIZE]

Are you going to try making sense any time soon? Or, are you just going to continue to evade the question?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are you going to try making sense any time soon? Or, are you just going to continue to evade the question?

As far as I'm concerned, I AM making sense..

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
- C.S. Lewis -

So you just assume that the universe is "non-sense", because you have no physical proof of 'One' superior who is responsible for our existence?

Have you got an explanation for our own self-aware, rational, volitional, conscious agency other than Almighty God?
I don't think so..

 

[fantome profane]

As far as I'm concerned, I AM making sense..

That’s nice.