Suppose Israel Destroys Hamas In Gaza.....

[Evangelicalhumanist]

At the end of the day, Israel is going to have to take a lesson from the two world wars. .After WWI, the allies basically said, "you lost, we're going to destroy you, shut up!" and the Germans felt so bereft, embarassed and flat broke that their determination arose quickly. After WWII, the allies said, "you lost, so now we're going to help you rebuild." Germany is an ally now, if memory serves. Granted, Nazi war criminals were put on trial, and when convicted, they were punished severely.

In the second case, I'd say that the allies showed Germany "the sort of people they wanted them to become," by behaving like the people they themselves hoped they were.

But for right now, I'm afraid Israel and Palestine are going to both have to be convinced that there has been a winner, and the fighting has to stop. That cannot come too quickly.

 

[Revoltingest]

At the same time it has to be made clear to Hamas that Israel is not going away.

I speculate that wanting to eliminate Israel is a reaction
to Israel's oppression of Palestinians & land theft.
When bargaining, extreme positions are typically taken
with the intent of meeting in some middle ground.

Israel appears to use the destroy-Israel as license to
brutalize other Muslims in pursuit of Hamas. This
sets up a cycle of recurring retribution & vengeance.

Moreover, can Israel be trusted to allow a Palestinian
state to exist? In the past, Israel encouraged settlers
to take ever more Palestinian land, which was then
incorporated to Israel. Israel would have to demonstrate
commitment to peace & autonomy of Palestinians, not
merely promise it.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/27/1208694837/two-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict

 

[Heyo]

Israel's strategy of seeking peace by eliminating Hamas
at great cost in life & property of Palestinians is dubious.
Hamas will survive in other countries. And Hamas isn't
alone in fighting Israel.

Not only Hamas: eight factions at war with Israel in Gaza

IDF Colonel Moshe Tetro told Newsweek that "anyone who holds a weapon against the State of Israel is doomed."

www.newsweek.com

How will Israel achieve peace if it continues its long held
policies....ie, what is the path to ending the attacks by
so many groups?

I don't think anyone in Israel is naïve enough to think they can destroy Hamas.
I think the goal is to disarm Hamas to a point that Israel will be a bit bit more safe for some time.
If I were naïve, I'd think that the goal is to remove Hamas from political power and install a government of people they can talk with and make a peace deal.
I don't believe that is the intention of the current Israeli government but I see it as a potential option for a peace process. That and free Marmite.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If Israel was a good and honest neighbour. Who respected Palestinian borders and rights, there never would have been a problem.
They have always seen Palestine as all theirs and Palestinians as no more than squatters with no rights at all. Zionism is the root of. the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think anyone in Israel is naïve enough to think they can destroy Hamas.

I agree. But it's a goal that for many justifies
massive death & destruction in Gaza, which
also appears to be a goal...to prevent return
of Palestinians, & send them a message, ie,
that your lives are forfeit if you stand in our
way.

I think the goal is to disarm Hamas to a point that Israel will be a bit bit more safe for some time.
If I were naïve, I'd think that the goal is to remove Hamas from political power and install a government of people they can talk with and make a peace deal.

Imposed regime change has fared poorly when
USA tried it. The Iran hostage crisis was the
direct result of CIA's 1953 coup. Afghanistan
efforts resulted in the Taliban gaining power.

 

[Heyo]

I agree. But it's a goal that for many justifies
massive death & destruction in Gaza, which
also appears to be a goal...to prevent return
of Palestinians, & send them a message, ie,
that your lives are forfeit if you stand in our
way.

Yep. That is the other leg of divide et impera. If you comply, you are rewarded, if you resist you suffer. Worked for the Romans most of the time. (Just not in Palestine, people there have been belligerent since forever. Lack of zinc in the diet makes aggressive.)

Imposed regime change has fared poorly when
USA tried it. The Iran hostage crisis was the
direct result of CIA's 1953 coup. Afghanistan
efforts resulted in the Taliban gaining power.

If you are right and the majority of Palestinians are not OK with Hamas' rule and methods, they will welcome regime change. I'm not so sure it would work, but I think the younger Palestinians deserve the chance to decide.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Netanyahu has apparently laid out a somewhat vague preliminary plan:

Netanyahu says Israel will have ‘overall security responsibility’ in Gaza after war

Prime minister rules out general ceasefire as Israel marks a month since Hamas attack

www.theguardian.com

Apparently, the US and the UK* have been quick to disagree:

Israel cannot reoccupy Gaza at end of conflict, says Antony Blinken

US secretary of state echoes White House line, while UK favours rule by ‘peace-loving Palestinian leadership’

www.theguardian.com

*I'm pretending we're relevant, for fun.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yep. That is the other leg of divide et impera. If you comply, you are rewarded, if you resist you suffer. Worked for the Romans most of the time. (Just not in Palestine, people there have been belligerent since forever. Lack of zinc in the diet makes aggressive.)

So we need to dump zinc into the water supplies of the whole middle east. Sounds like a plan. Hmm, maybe the next time I am making chem trails I can add some zinc to the mix.

Seriously it would be interesting to see if there is a lack of zinc in the average Middle Easterner.

If you are right and the majority of Palestinians are not OK with Hamas' rule and methods, they will welcome regime change. I'm not so sure it would work, but I think the younger Palestinians deserve the chance to decide.

The problem is that Hamas knows how to attract zealots and use them. They may have had a minority rule there for quite a while. The average person may be too afraid to fight back.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Massive funds allocated for rebuilding. People to people efforts among those who desire a better future. Open forums for those who are angry to vent their spleen without bombs. Stop and reverse settlements. Move to allowing the Palestinians to take over more control of their lives. Stop locking up those who disagree with Israeli policies - instead offer them a seat at the table.

(I did not say it would be easy).

Those sort of steps did help peacefully resolve the Troubles.

 

[Heyo]

So we need to dump zinc into the water supplies of the whole middle east. Sounds like a plan. Hmm, maybe the next time I am making chem trails I can add some zinc to the mix.

Seriously it would be interesting to see if there is a lack of zinc in the average Middle Easterner.

Here's the story behind the remark: De Bono's Marmite plan for peace in Middle Yeast
Seems plausible to me. I had even previously suspected that there had to be something in the water supply in the region that it not only birthed the three major monotheistic (more or less) religions but also is a region that has seen probably the most conflict on the planet, even more than Europe. A lack of something is even more likely than that there is something that causes it.

The problem is that Hamas knows how to attract zealots and use them. They may have had a minority rule there for quite a while. The average person may be too afraid to fight back.

The question is how much of Hamas remains in the now occupied regions. If Israel gives partial autonomy back to the Palestinians, they will want to make sure that no radical groups like Hamas have much chance to intimidate the voters.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here's the story behind the remark: De Bono's Marmite plan for peace in Middle Yeast
Seems plausible to me. I had even previously suspected that there had to be something in the water supply in the region that it not only birthed the three major monotheistic (more or less) religions but also is a region that has seen probably the most conflict on the planet, even more than Europe. A lack of something is even more likely than that there is something that causes it.

The question is how much of Hamas remains in the now occupied regions. If Israel gives partial autonomy back to the Palestinians, they will want to make sure that no radical groups like Hamas have much chance to intimidate the voters.

I do not think of Hamas as brave fighters. They may use some of their youngest recruits for this. They will gladly sacrifice their own people for the cause as shown by how they occupy hospitals and schools to use innocents as shields. I am very sure that the top ranks will mostly be in hiding until Israel pulls out. Unfortunately I give Israel very little chance of getting rid off Hamas. And remember, many of the Palestinians will only see this as an aggressive action by Israel.

That is why I think a third party is needed for any sort of peace. One that would hopefully not be fooled by Hama members lying low.

 

[InChrist]

None of these groups can actually eliminate Israel.
And Fatah has fought Israel before. Besides there's
nothing to prevent their adopting the same policies
as Hamas. Nor is there anything to prevent Hamas
from returning.
The better path is for Israel to stop brutally inspiring
armed resistance.

How? Just interested in how you think Israel should stop inspiring armed resistance?

 

[InChrist]

None of these groups can actually eliminate Israel.
And Fatah has fought Israel before. Besides there's
nothing to prevent their adopting the same policies
as Hamas. Nor is there anything to prevent Hamas
from returning.
The better path is for Israel to stop brutally inspiring
armed resistance.

How? What do you think Israel should do ?

 

[Revoltingest]

How? What do you think Israel should do ?

How? Just interested in how you think Israel should stop inspiring armed resistance?

As I've covered before, & will happily re-state...
- Stop the oppression.
- Treat Palestinians as well as Jews.
- Stop war crimes.
- Make reparations, eg, land stolen, homes destroyed,
people wrongly killed, injured, imprisoned, or tortured.
- Prosecute Jewish settlers who kill & steal from Palestinians.
- Re-build Gaza.
- End pressuring USA to make war with Iran.

It won't be quick or easy.
The primary goal:
Israel & Palestine both living in their
own peaceful & secure countries.

 

[InChrist]

As I've covered before, & will happily re-state...
- Stop the oppression.
- Treat Palestinians as well as Jews.
- Stop war crimes.
- Make reparations, eg, land stolen, homes destroyed,
people wrongly killed, injured, imprisoned, or tortured.
- Prosecute Jewish settlers who kill & steal from Palestinians.
- Re-build Gaza.
- End pressuring USA to make war with Iran.

It won't be quick or easy.
The primary goal:
Israel & Palestine both living in their
own peaceful & secure countries.

BTW, a double post there.
It's a problem on RF right now.

Yes, noticed the double post issue. Thanks for your response. Just heading out the door, will have to get back later.

 

[bobhikes]

Israel's strategy of seeking peace by eliminating Hamas
at great cost in life & property of Palestinians is dubious.
Hamas will survive in other countries. And Hamas isn't
alone in fighting Israel.

Not only Hamas: eight factions at war with Israel in Gaza

IDF Colonel Moshe Tetro told Newsweek that "anyone who holds a weapon against the State of Israel is doomed."

www.newsweek.com

How will Israel achieve peace if it continues its long held
policies....ie, what is the path to ending the attacks by
so many groups?

They won't ever achieve peace for more than short spurts of time but that doesn't mean they can't fight for it. I only wish the US was left out of it. As to great cost in life and property that is true of every military battle.

 

[Revoltingest]

They won't ever achieve peace for more than short spurts of time but that doesn't mean they can't fight for it. I only wish the US was left out of it. As to great cost in life and property that is true of every military battle.

I wish USA were in it, but productively.
(My reasons are national security cuz
escalation would involve it.)

BTW, the double post...now triple post...problem on RF gotcha.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wish USA were in it, but productively.
(My reasons are national security cuz
escalation would involve it.)

BTW, the double post...now triple post...problem on RF gotcha.

I learned early and cleaned up my mistakes. I always get a notice saying that something when wrong. I just hit "refresh".

 

[bobhikes]

I wish USA were in it, but productively.
(My reasons are national security cuz
escalation would involve it.)

BTW, the double post...now triple post...problem on RF gotcha.

Yeah it told me network connection was lost, try again later. In fact this post got the same thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah it told me network connection was lost, try again later. In fact this post got the same thing.

I've had to delete a few meself.