Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I had a nice discussion with a mod when I alerted him of this problem. Oddly enough the problem does not exist in private messages.
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Suppose Israel Destroys Hamas In Gaza.....
- Thread starter Revoltingest
- Start date
I've had to delete a few meself.
Nor on another Xenforo forum I post in.
InChrist
Free4ever
Okay, possibly you have some positive ideas that I think could work under normal circumstances. But do you think even if these things were implemented they would work with those whose desired goal has been to annihilate the nation of Israel from its beginning? If the goal is to get rid of Israel, how is peace possible or terrorism stopped by making conditions in Gaza better? You’ve said the primary goal is;
“Israel & Palestine both living in their
own peaceful & secure countries.”.
Yet, what if that is not the Palestinian’s goal? What if they don’t want Israel/Jews to live there at all?
“On May 14, 1948, Israel declared itself an independent nation once again. Israel's Proclamation of Independence stated: "We extend our hand to all neighboring States and their peoples in an offer of peace...and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land...placing our trust in the Almighty...." That olive branch was trampled by the regular armies of at least five Arab nations attacking Israeli settlers in what they described as a war of extermination. That to exterminate Israel is required by Islam (no Arab map shows Israel's existence) makes real peace in the Middle East impossible--but political correctness won't admit it.
More than 800,000 Jews fled from Muslim lands to Israel for refuge, leaving behind virtually everything they had possessed. This was almost double the number of Arab refugees who fled from Israel during the war of independence. Yet these Jewish refugees who fled persecution and slaughter are ignored in the media. For example, in 1948 there were about 265,000 Jews in Morocco, today there are about 5,000. There were about 140,000 Jews in Algeria, while today there are none. There were about 135,000 in Iraq, 75,000 in Egypt, and 30,000 in Syria, with only about 100 remaining in each of these countries.
The Arabs who fled Israel in 1948 (in spite of Israel's urgent invitation to remain to build a new country together) did so at the insistence of the Arab military. They were warned that those who remained would be considered traitors to the Arab cause. Most of those who fled never saw an Israeli soldier. They are the only "refugees" in the Middle East as far as the world is concerned and to whom all the sympathy is given. Jewish refugees count for nothing. The families of those who did not flee comprise about 25 percent of Israel's citizens today and have full voting rights. Some are even members of the Knesset, in spite of their opposition to Israel's existence. In stark contrast, no Jew can be a citizen of any Muslim country, where the few remaining have almost no rights.
One would expect that the Jewish refugees, numbering about twice as many at the time and having fled indescribable persecution in Muslim lands, would be more than a fair exchange for the Arab refugees. Jews would never want to go back to these Muslim lands, and have been well absorbed into normal Israeli life. But the Arab "refugees" (in spite of the Arabs possessing 700 times the land given to Israel, and with vast sums of oil money available for assistance) have been deliberately kept in squalid camps as a festering sore to support Islam's controversy with Israel. They have multiplied into millions and would literally destroy Israel if the world could ever force Israel to receive them back. On October 11, 1949, Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Saleh el-Din, declared that in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine [i.e., Israel], "the Arabs intend that they shall return as masters.... More explicitly: they intend to annihilate the state of Israel."
Why the Jews?
In the last century there were more than 100 million displaced refugees (about 15 million in the creation of India and Pakistan). None ever go back nor does the United Nations concern itself in any attempt to send them back. This is the rule and practice. Ah, but there is one exception--the "Palestinians" must be received back to Israel in order to destroy her.”
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InChrist
Free4ever
If this is the mindset (below) of Hamas leaders or other such anti-Israel groups how is the goal you stated above possible?
“Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such,” said al-Hayya. “Hamas, the Qassam and the resistance woke the world up from its deep sleep and showed that this issue must remain on the table.”
“He added: “This battle was not because we wanted fuel or laborers. It did not seek to improve the situation in Gaza. This battle is to completely overthrow the situation.”
Senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told Lebanon’s LBC TV on Oct. 24 that the terror group would continue to carry out massacres like the one it carried out in southern Israel on Oct. 7 until the Jewish state is destroyed.
“Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished,” said Hamad, according to a translation of the interview provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute.”
Hamas: We want permanent war with Israel
“Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such" but to "completely overthrow the situation," said a member of the terror group's political bureau.
www.israel365news.com
Israel has been stealing from, killing, & oppressing
Palestinians for 70 years. This inspires violent resistance.
Instead of focusing upon calls for Israel to be destroyed,
consider how to inspire peaceful attitudes.
The solution is to honor Palestinian human rights.
On the flip side, many Israelis & their government don't
value Muslim lives as much as Jewish lives. Does this
mean they can't be reasoned with too? No.
It will be necessary to set aside rhetoric, hatred, &
bigotry....examine why each side hates the other.
Therein lies tools to craft a solution.
That could be discovered by sincerely & intelligently
attempting a path to peace. But if that "what if"
question is an excuse for Israel to continue brutalizing
Palestinians, then that vicious history will be repeated.
Instead, ask....
What if Israel can find peace by treating Palestinians
with justice? It's worth trying.
To the last question....
The Jews stole Palestine from the Palestinians,
killing & exiling them. Then oppressing those
who remained. And invading more land to
repeat the tactic.
If as you appear to suggest, that displacing refugees
is "rule & practice" then you offer approval for other
countries conquering Israel, & driving out the Jews.
It's the Russian mode...
If you can't defend it, I've the right to take it.
I don't buy that.
2 wrongs don't make a right.
That link is hard for old eyes to read.
It's dense & full of cryptic citations.
What point do you make with it?
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There are all sorts of anti-Israel-survival attitudes you can find.If this is the mindset (below) of Hamas leaders or other such anti-Israel groups how is the goal you stated above possible?
“Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such,” said al-Hayya. “Hamas, the Qassam and the resistance woke the world up from its deep sleep and showed that this issue must remain on the table.”
“He added: “This battle was not because we wanted fuel or laborers. It did not seek to improve the situation in Gaza. This battle is to completely overthrow the situation.”
Senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told Lebanon’s LBC TV on Oct. 24 that the terror group would continue to carry out massacres like the one it carried out in southern Israel on Oct. 7 until the Jewish state is destroyed.
“Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished,” said Hamad, according to a translation of the interview provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute.”
Hamas: We want permanent war with Israel
“Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such" but to "completely overthrow the situation," said a member of the terror group's political bureau.
Do you cite them because you believe they're immutable?
That ensures the status quo of Jews & vastly more Palestinians
suffering death & destruction
Where does that leave Israel & Muslims if this cannot change?
Note also that many Israeli Jews do believe that Muslims are
lesser people. It explains why Israel kills them wholesale, steals
their land, bombs their home, etc. I don't find their bigoted
violent beliefs immutable either
Israel is the far bigger power, & has been doing the Palestinians
wrong for far longer than vice versa. So responsibility for the
first move to peace is theirs. End the oppression. End the mass
murder & destruction. Value Palestinian rights & lives.
Only that can eventually result in peace, security, & prosperity
for all.
InChrist
Free4ever
The link was only attached because I included quotes, no need to read the whole thing if you don’t want to.
From what I’ve read of the history it wasn’t Israel that initially invaded or drove anyone out of their homes. Five Arab countries attacked the brand new nation of Israel telling and threatening the Arab population to get out beforehand.
Again, how is it possible to reach the goal you stated of Israel and Palestinians living peacefully and securely in their own countries, if there are Hamas leaders or other groups with the mindset below?
Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such,” said al-Hayya. “Hamas, the Qassam and the resistance woke the world up from its deep sleep and showed that this issue must remain on the table.”
He added: “This battle was not because we wanted fuel or laborers. It did not seek to improve the situation in Gaza. This battle is to completely overthrow the situation.”
Senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told Lebanon’s LBC TV on Oct. 24 that the terror group would continue to carry out massacres like the one it carried out in southern Israel on Oct. 7 until the Jewish state is destroyed.
“Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished,” said Hamad, according to a translation of the interview provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute.”
Hamas: We want permanent war with Israel
“Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such" but to "completely overthrow the situation," said a member of the terror group's political bureau.
www.israel365news.com
On a side note, do you know who the original Palestinians were?
“Going back to history, in 135 A.D., the Romans destroyed 1,000 Jewish villages, killed 500,000 Jews, and enslaved thousands. Furious that they'd been forced to bring in more legions to quell the rebellion, the Romans angrily renamed what had for more than 1,500 years been known as Israel. They called it Provincia Palestina after the Philistines, Israel's ancient enemies. Those living there became known as Palestinians. Who lived there? Jews! So Jews, ironically were the first "Palestinians." This is what they were called (along with many derisive names that have followed them as they've been hunted from country to country). Only in the 1950s did the Arabs begin to call themselves "Palestinians" in order to gain worldwide sympathy for their acts of terrorism even as UN pressure squeezed Israel into an ever-smaller corner in order to facilitate her destruction. (We document all of this and much more in Judgment Day! [Judgment Day!].)”
Israel and Prophetic Proof—Part 2
Originally published July 1, 2009 Israel is the major topic of Bible prophecy, mentioned more than 2,900 times, nearly twice as many times as her Messiah. Without Israel there would be no Messiah a
We must read different history.
Because Hamas & other groups warring with Israel
could be inspired to stop the violence if Israel ends
the oppression, etc, etc.
Failure is to look for reasons there can't be peace.Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such,” said al-Hayya. “Hamas, the Qassam and the resistance woke the world up from its deep sleep and showed that this issue must remain on the table.”
He added: “This battle was not because we wanted fuel or laborers. It did not seek to improve the situation in Gaza. This battle is to completely overthrow the situation.”
Senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told Lebanon’s LBC TV on Oct. 24 that the terror group would continue to carry out massacres like the one it carried out in southern Israel on Oct. 7 until the Jewish state is destroyed.
“Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished,” said Hamad, according to a translation of the interview provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute.”
Hamas: We want permanent war with Israel
“Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such" but to "completely overthrow the situation," said a member of the terror group's political bureau.
On a side note, do you know who the original Palestinians were?
“Going back to history, in 135 A.D., the Romans destroyed 1,000 Jewish villages, killed 500,000 Jews, and enslaved thousands. Furious that they'd been forced to bring in more legions to quell the rebellion, the Romans angrily renamed what had for more than 1,500 years been known as Israel. They called it Provincia Palestina after the Philistines, Israel's ancient enemies. Those living there became known as Palestinians. Who lived there? Jews! So Jews, ironically were the first "Palestinians." This is what they were called (along with many derisive names that have followed them as they've been hunted from country to country). Only in the 1950s did the Arabs begin to call themselves "Palestinians" in order to gain worldwide sympathy for their acts of terrorism even as UN pressure squeezed Israel into an ever-smaller corner in order to facilitate her destruction. (We document all of this and much more in Judgment Day! [Judgment Day!].)”
Israel and Prophetic Proof—Part 2
Originally published July 1, 2009 Israel is the major topic of Bible prophecy, mentioned more than 2,900 times, nearly twice as many times as her Messiah. Without Israel there would be no Messiah awww.thebereancall.org
InChrist
Free4ever
I am just under the impression that peace is not possible with entities whose stated goal and determination is to kill or annihilate you, as certain Islamic groups have persistently expressed.
I didn’t say there can’t or won’t be peace.
I'm not hopeful.
But I see the possibility if ever Israel
adopts practices that match the
better values they claim to believe,
then violent resistance will fade away.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I may go back and forth with political stances on economics, but in the end, I do have some sympathies with capitalism and libertarian thinking. Sure, social conditioning does likely play a great role in human life. But if tomorrow, everyone in that region started thinking like a libertarian for a while, and got a strong drive for business, then don't you think they could just work past most of that? I think that maybe mindset is kind of a precondition for any kind of peace.
I haven't proposed that anyone there become libertarian.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
You don't think that some of that would work in this case?
My political orientation seems
superfluous in this conflict.
We Never Know
No Slack
And that's a big problem. Seeking vengeance instead of peace.