Supreme Court rules in case of Colorado bakery

[ADigitalArtist]

What I see happening here is you're taking something you categorize as "I don't like that this happened" and are mixing it up with "this is the worst thing in the world" and are lumping it into the same category as the Nuremburg laws... it's an extreme stretch. Nobody is banning homosexuals from owning businesses or stripping them of their citizenship. A baker refused to design a cake for a homosexual couple. If you find this to be the first step towards rounding up homosexuals into ghettos, then I would say you're severely overstating the severity of this situation.

Though you would not be severely overstating the situation to say that businesss are running with the false pretense of what this case means and stepping up further discrimination against gays. As that's already happened.
Tennessee hardware store puts up 'No Gays Allowed' sign

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I disagree. This baker wasn't simply mass producing cakes and refusing a particular customer. He designs them each to be unique for the occasion. The reasons a Muslim tattoo artist wouldn't want to tattoo Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are entirely religious. But his business is tattooing people, especially people who approach him with their own designs in mind. And if someone, in the name of free speech and in solidarity with the danish cartoonists, wanted such a tattoo, how could a person who provides tattoos for a living say no?

The baker was refusing to provide a service provided to others, and a product provided to others, to the gay couple. This is not relatable to your example.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Though you would not be severely overstating the situation to say that businesss are running with the false pretense of what this case means and stepping up further discrimination against gays. As that's already happened.
Tennessee hardware store puts up 'No Gays Allowed' sign
View attachment 22355

This case doesn't pave the way for this sort of garbage, and it's not the case that the colorado baker wouldn't have sold a gay customer a birthday cake.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So a muslim tattoo artist who owns and operates his own tattoo parlor could never refuse to ink the image of Muhammad wearing a bomb in his turban from the Danish cartoon unless he gives up his business entirely?

Not the same issue as what we're talking about here.

Every business makes decisions about what products or services to offer or not. In the case of these bakeries, we're talking about products that the business happily carries as part of their normal product line.

The cake issue is purely about discriminating against certain categories of customer.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The baker was refusing to provide a service provided to others, and a product provided to others, to the gay couple. This is not relatable to your example.

It is because his products are uniquely designed for particular events. his product isn't the same product twice. His businesses isn't pumping out generic cakes. It's customized.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree. This baker wasn't simply mass producing cakes and refusing a particular customer. He designs them each to be unique for the occasion.

He designs them to the specifications of each individual client, but they're all still wedding cakes, all still offered to the public.

Whatever the baker's parameters for what sorts of cakes he will and won't make is his business, but they're parameters on the cakes, not on which customers he'll sell to.

If he would make a particular cake for an opposite-sex couple but not for a same-sex couple, then the issue is the customer, not the cake design.

The reasons a Muslim tattoo artist wouldn't want to tattoo Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are entirely religious. But his business is tattooing people, especially people who approach him with their own designs in mind. And if someone, in the name of free speech and in solidarity with the danish cartoonists, wanted such a tattoo, how could a person who provides tattoos for a living say no?

By saying "I won't do that design."

I really don't understand your mental block on the distinction between the product and the customer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is because his products are uniquely designed for particular events. his product isn't the same product twice. His businesses isn't pumping out generic cakes. It's customized.

So?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Not the same issue as what we're talking about here.

Every business makes decisions about what products or services to offer or not. In the case of these bakeries, we're talking about products that the business happily carries as part of their normal product line.

The cake issue is purely about discriminating against certain categories of customer.

“I serve everybody. It’s just that I don’t create cakes for every occasion,” Jack Phillips told NBC’s Today show Tuesday – one day after he prevailed at the Supreme Court. “I don’t discriminate against anybody.”

Colorado Bakery Owner Insists He's Not Biased

If he was refusing to sell ANYTHING to gay people, you might be onto something. But he's refusing to create a unique wedding cake for a particular occasion that he doesn't support.

 

[Jesster]

By saying "I won't do that design.".

This, right here, is the ultimate issue. He's not saying "I won't do that design". He's saying "I won't design for these customers".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

“I serve everybody. It’s just that I don’t create cakes for every occasion,” Jack Phillips told NBC’s Today show Tuesday – one day after he prevailed at the Supreme Court. “I don’t discriminate against anybody.”

If he didn't do wedding cakes at all, that would be fine... but he does do them.

Colorado Bakery Owner Insists He's Not Biased

If he was refusing to sell ANYTHING to gay people, you might be onto something. But he's refusing to create a unique wedding cake for a particular occasion that he doesn't support.

He doesn't support weddings?

 

[Poisonshady313]

He doesn't support same sex weddings. and neither did colorado at the time. But if he was willing to sell them any other type of product that he sold, it's hard to insist that the refusal was based on the customer rather than the specific purpose of the cake.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It is because his products are uniquely designed for particular events. his product isn't the same product twice. His businesses isn't pumping out generic cakes. It's customized.

First of all, he wouldnt provide any cake in this case, not just a custom job. They never even got to discussing designs. Let alone designs that specifically included same sex partners.

Second, custom service is as much under the perview of discrimination law as anything. You couldn't refuse to do a custom pink car paint job for a gay man if you also provide custom pink paint jobs to a straight woman.

This case doesn't pave the way for this sort of garbage, and it's not the case that the colorado baker wouldn't have sold a gay customer a birthday cake.

This case doesn't legally pave the way for anything but a return to lower courts and a stern reprimand to the CCC. That doesn't mean people who perceive an Inch won't push for a mile.

 

[fantome profane]

He designs them each to be unique for the occasion. The reasons a Muslim tattoo artist wouldn't want to tattoo Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are entirely religious.

But you cannot use that argument in this specific case. There is nothing about the design of the cake that the baker could point to and say “I won’t do that”. Your Muslim tattoo artist comparison is not apt.

 

[Poisonshady313]

First of all, he wouldnt provide any cake in this case, not just a custom job. They never even got to discussing designs. Let alone designs that specifically included same sex partners.

Any cake he sells IS a custom job. Go to the website. You can't even try to order a stock cake from a catalog.

Second, custom service is as much under the perview of discrimination law as anything.

State law, not federal law.

You couldn't refuse to do a custom pink car paint job for a gay man if you also provide custom pink paint jobs to a straight woman.

I agree with you about that. Also, it doesn't affect the argument that we're having.

 

[Poisonshady313]

But you cannot use that argument in this specific case. There is nothing about the design of the cake that the baker could point to and say “I won’t do that”. Your Muslim tattoo artist comparison is not apt.

Fine then... take the particular image out of the equation.

If the customer said "I want you to tattoo the image of the prophet muhammad". That's open to interpretation, and could look like anything. And without getting to the design stage of things, the tattoo artist should be able to say "Nope, I won't do it. My religious beliefs preclude me from depicting Muhammad. Find another tattoo shop"

 

[fantome profane]

Fine then... take the particular image out of the equation.

If the customer said "I want you to tattoo the image of the prophet muhammad". That's open to interpretation, and could look like anything. And without getting to the design stage of things, the tattoo artist should be able to say "Nope, I won't do it. My religious beliefs preclude me from depicting Muhammad. Find another tattoo shop"

You are still missing the point. If the customer comes in and says I want a tattoo, and does not get the chance to say anything all about what kind of tattoo they want because the tattoo artist refused based on the religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation of the customer that would be more like what happened in this specific case.

 

[Shad]

Every business makes decisions about what products or services to offer or not. In the case of these bakeries, we're talking about products that the business happily carries as part of their normal product line.

If I remember correctly the baker in this case stated around 40% of all his business were for weddings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Fine then... take the particular image out of the equation.

If the customer said "I want you to tattoo the image of the prophet muhammad". That's open to interpretation, and could look like anything. And without getting to the design stage of things, the tattoo artist should be able to say "Nope, I won't do it. My religious beliefs preclude me from depicting Muhammad. Find another tattoo shop"

"I want you to tattoo the image of the prophet Muhammad" is already getting into the design stage of things.

 

[ecco]

The Holocaust wasn't the result of German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews. I believe the Public Accommodation laws as set forth in Federal Law are sufficient to prevent the sort of catastrophic discrimination you're envisioning.

ecco previously:
German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews was an early indication of what was to come.
Most Germans in 1925 could not foresee the sort of catastrophic discrimination that later occurred.
​

What I see happening here is you're taking something you categorize as "I don't like that this happened" and are mixing it up with "this is the worst thing in the world" and are lumping it into the same category as the Nuremburg laws... it's an extreme stretch. Nobody is banning homosexuals from owning businesses or stripping them of their citizenship. A baker refused to design a cake for a homosexual couple. If you find this to be the first step towards rounding up homosexuals into ghettos, then I would say you're severely overstating the severity of this situation.

As I said...
Most Germans in 1925 could not foresee the sort of catastrophic discrimination that later occurred.

People always believe, it can't happen here, until it does.

In the 1950's Communists were ostracized and blacklisted and many lost their jobs. Maybe you've never heard of Sen. Joseph McCarthy.

Perhaps you also don't remember that blacks were not allowed eat in the same restaurants, stay in the same hotels or attend the same schools as whites. White bakers did not bake cakes for blacks. A white baker that did so would not have lasted very long in Birmingham, AL.

 

[ecco]

Though you would not be severely overstating the situation to say that businesss are running with the false pretense of what this case means and stepping up further discrimination against gays. As that's already happened.
Tennessee hardware store puts up 'No Gays Allowed' sign
View attachment 22355

The level of intelligence and education of the owner is clearly demonstrated by the sign that reads...

SMILE
Your
on
Camera​