Supreme Court rules in case of Colorado bakery

[Revoltingest]

That is another distinction that should be considered. Should a sign painter be allowed to refuse to sell a sign that says “Yard Sale” if the people buying it are a gay couple?

Here, the signmaker would be compelled to create one which says
only "Yard Sale", but likely not one which says "Gay Marriage Yard Sale".
This isn't about who the customer is, but rather the service requested.

I once refused to serve a gay couple back when I managed real estate
rentals. It wasn't because they were gay, but because they wanted me
to do something unethical. Fortunately, this never went as far as court.

 

[Poisonshady313]

That is another distinction that should be considered. Should a sign painter be allowed to refuse to sell a sign that says “Yard Sale” if the people buying it are a gay couple?

Technically, I suppose so, though I'm not sure how likely a scenario that is. It occurs to me that if this colorado baker were a sign maker, he wouldn't have a problem selling a Yard Sale sign to a gay couple... he just wouldn't make them a "This way to our same sex wedding" sign.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So...
If I own a fine dining restaurant and hire creative chefs, I can refuse service to blacks.

Nope... no matter how "fine" the dining in your restaurant may be, restaurants are clearly mentioned as a public accommodation in federal law.

If I am an artistic baker, I can refuse service to Jews.

Yes.

That's your concept of public accommodation?

Actually, I'm trying to say that a bakery that isn't also a restaurant is not public accommodation.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'd say that under the law, the baker should sell a generic
cake for a gay wedding, but not be compelled to create
some message or embellishmentwhich offends the baker

My objection there is there's a third category not being taken into account. It's not about the person, and it's not even specifically about the design. It's about the event.

If an antisemetic cake maker refused to sell even a generic birthday cake for a Bar Mitzvah, I would rather find another cake maker than force that individual to make something he finds detestable, even if it makes him a terrible person. I don't need a terrible person making my cake just to prove a point that I can get the government to force him to do it.

 

[fantome profane]

Here, the signmaker would be compelled to create one which says
only "Yard Sale", but likely not one which says "Gay Marriage Yard Sale".
This isn't about who the customer is, but rather the service requested.

I once refused to serve a gay couple back when I managed real estate
rentals. It wasn't because they were gay, but because they wanted me
to do something unethical. Fortunately, this never went as far as court.

Technically, I suppose so, though I'm not sure how likely a scenario that is. It occurs to me that if this colorado baker were a sign maker, he wouldn't have a problem selling a Yard Sale sign to a gay couple... he just wouldn't make them a "This way to our same sex wedding" sign.

Ok, so how about a cake that is just a cake, but not one that says “gay marriage” on it.

The baker knows that the people buying the cake are gay, and intend to serve the cake at their wedding, but there is nothing about the cake that indicates this.

Can the baker refuse on these grounds?

(And for the record, this is exactly the situation in the recent Supreme Court case).

 

[Revoltingest]

My objection there is there's a third category not being taken into account. It's not about the person, and it's not even specifically about the design. It's about the event.

If an antisemetic cake maker refused to sell even a generic birthday cake for a Bar Mitzvah, I would rather find another cake maker than force that individual to make something he finds detestable, even if it makes him a terrible person. I don't need a terrible person making my cake just to prove a point that I can get the government to force him to do it.

I understand.
But the legal line is being drawn to sanction against such refusals to sell cakes.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Ok, so how about a cake that is just a cake, but not one that says “gay marriage” on it.

The baker knows that the people buying the cake are gay, and intend to serve the cake at their wedding, but there is nothing about the cake that indicates this.

Can the baker refuse on these grounds?

(And for the record, this is exactly the situation in the recent Supreme Court case).

Yes. Read post 84.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok, so how about a cake that is just a cake, but not one that says “gay marriage” on it.

The baker knows that the people buying the cake are gay, and intend to serve the cake at their wedding, but there is nothing about the cake that indicates this.

Can the baker refuse on these grounds?

(And for the record, this is exactly the situation in the recent Supreme Court case).

Where I live, it would be illegal to refuse to sell the cake.
This is a workable compromise between competing interests.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I understand.
But the legal line is being drawn to sanction against such refusals to sell cakes.

What is and what I believe should be are, in this case, two different things. I think Colorado, and other states, go to far in listing "retail stores" in their public accommodation laws, because under that definition the bakery is a retail store and finds itself, legally, unable to refuse in a way I believe creators should be able to.

 

[Revoltingest]

What is and what I believe should be are, in this case, two different things. I think Colorado, and other states, go to far in listing "retail stores" in their public accommodation laws, because under that definition the bakery is a retail store and finds itself, legally, unable to refuse in a way I believe creators should be able to.

I'd prefer a world where I could refuse to do business with anyone for any reason.
But it will never be that way.
So I'll advocate for a compromise which minimizes coercion while minimizing
unreasonable discrimination. The end result: No one will be happy.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'd prefer a world where I could refuse to do business with anyone for any reason.
But it will never be that way.
So I'll advocate for a compromise which minimizes coercion while minimizing
unreasonable discrimination. The end result: No one will be happy.

Life is tragic and at times unfair. I prefer to err on the side of less government intrusion into a person's life.

 

[fantome profane]

What is and what I believe should be are, in this case, two different things. I think Colorado, and other states, go to far in listing "retail stores" in their public accommodation laws, because under that definition the bakery is a retail store and finds itself, legally, unable to refuse in a way I believe creators should be able to.

What is a “creator”? Does that include chefs, baristas, mixologists?

 

[Poisonshady313]

What is a “creator”? Does that include chefs, baristas, mixologists?

No. Restaurants are clearly defined by federal law as public accommodations.

 

[Revoltingest]

Life is tragic and at times unfair. I prefer to err on the side of less government intrusion into a person's life.

I agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

No. Restaurants are clearly defined by federal law as public accommodations.

It gets tricky when a business strives to obey the law
regarding public accommodation, but an employee refuses.
Then we might have to accommodate both.

 

[Poisonshady313]

It gets tricky when a business strives to obey the law
regarding public accommodation, but an employee refuses.
Then we might have to accommodate both.

As far as I'm concerned, an employee is almost never in a position to refuse service. That's a decision made by the owner.

At most, an employee could pass something off to a collegue, or a manager. But i wouldn't give the power to turn away a client to an employee.

 

[ecco]

Actually, I'm trying to say that a bakery that isn't also a restaurant is not public accommodation.

Try harder. All you have done is state your unwarranted opinions.

 

[ecco]

If an antisemetic cake maker refused to sell even a generic birthday cake for a Bar Mitzvah, I would rather find another cake maker

That worked until the Government shut down all the "other " bakeries.

You don't really understand the reasons for these laws.

 

[ecco]

I'd prefer a world where I could refuse to do business with anyone for any reason.

Would you prefer a world where atheists had to wear armbands with 666 on them so that Christian bakers could easily identify them and refuse them service?

 

[ecco]

As far as I'm concerned, an employee is almost never in a position to refuse service.
.

Not too long ago a civil servant refused to grant marriage licenses to a gay couple. She was hailed a hero by many people.