Supreme Court ruling on prayer case

[Poisonshady313]

No, you asked rather rudely. And you have not acknowledged your errors. You have no right to expect a polite reply.

I wasn't rude. Direct, maybe?

"What makes you say so".... a call for elaboration. A wish that you supply evidence for your supposition.

Didn't figure there would be anything wrong with that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Does it really though? if the athletes on the field are free to simply walk away, is it institutionalized?

If the school establishes a religion, this isn't made
constitutional by allowing non-believers to leave.

I would need evidence of this happening. The mere possibility is not enough. My car can exceed 120 mph. Doesn't mean I should get a ticket while driving the speed limit because of what's possible.

If there's a strong correlation between cars being
able to break the speed limit, & cars commonly
breaking the speed limit, then this would be a problem,
even if an individual car at a particular time doesn't
speed.

But no such relationship need be shown because of
the establishment clause (1st Amendment). Of course,
SCOTUS could void the Incorporation Doctrine (which
makes the Bill Of Rights & subsequent amendments
binding upon not just the fed gov, but also the states),
thereby eliminating all rights in the Constitution at the
state level.

I don't yet see how coach praying after the game rises to the level of proselytization.

That's because you're not considering the full circumstances,
eg, his intent to affect the students, his refusal to pray with
less appearance of color of authority.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The people that are not doing anything wrong should not be the ones that walk away.

I mean, if the game is over and literally all that is left to do is go home... i feel like just going home is a perfectly viable option.

Unless there's evidence that this coach was treating non participants differently.

 

[Estro Felino]

That may depend on the group.

I've dealt with some pretty intolerant Christians. I was on a neighborhood association in which another member told me he would not work with me because I wasn't a Christian. I got my art scribbled all over because someone deemed it wasn't 'Christian'(it wasn't anything; the art wasn't religious at all, yet...) I've been told that my participation wasn't appreciated in other activities because I wasn't Christian(not to mention general bullying). I have no doubt any of those folks would be happy to make my(or anyone else's) faith illegal, if it didn't match theirs. And all this is mild compared to the intolerance my husband faced growing up in the American south(yes, physical violence was involved).

Its not only Christians. I've been bullied by others in differing faith/nonfaith groups, too. I'm just not sure I'd say they're the most tolerant bunch on Earth. I really don't know who'd I'd award that to. (Hm. Maybe Jains....)

I am so sorry for what you have gone through. Deeply sorry. I apologize on those Christians' behalf.
Sectarianism is very bad. And Christians can be very sectarian, that's very unfortunate.
But fortunately, all religions and all beliefs are allowed in very Christian areas of the United States. I meant that. Only that. I did not mean to imply that all Christian groups are welcoming outsiders.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wasn't rude. Direct, maybe?

"What makes you say so".... a call for elaboration. A wish that you supply evidence for your supposition.

Didn't figure there would be anything wrong with that.

It was rude. And you still have not acknowledge your errors.

Are you a Christian?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I mean, if the game is over and literally all that is left to do is go home... i feel like just going home is a perfectly viable option.

Unless there's evidence that this coach was treating non participants differently.

He was also still on the clock. He was still being paid. The man is a hypocritical Christian. Why are you defending him?

 

[Poisonshady313]

It was rude.

I disagree.

And you still have not acknowledge your errors.

I believe the error is yours.

Are you a Christian?

No.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, I see that @Poisonshady313 's religion is Judaism. So he may not know how Christians are supposed to pray. According to Jesus Mathew 5 6-8

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am so sorry for what you have gone through. Deeply sorry. I apologize on those Christians' behalf.
Sectarianism is very bad. And Christians can be very sectarian, that's very unfortunate.
But fortunately, all religions and all beliefs are allowed in very Christian areas of the United States. I meant that. Only that. I did not mean to imply that all Christian groups are welcoming outsiders.

If religions of staff & students are to be made known by
schools having religious ceremonies with non-believers
noticeably abstaining, this opens up the certainty that
dominant religions will tend to treat others with less regard.
Separation of church & state benefits public schools by
allowing students & staff to keep religion from being
made known to all, & having it be a factor in participation.
The faithful....
atheist worker fired after refusing to attend company prayer meeting...

It reminds me of the default in US courts to swear to God
(the Judeo-Christian god) to tell the truth. To request a
secular oath is to notify judge & jury that one is not of
their faith, which is generally majority Christian.
This can have a prejudicial effect.
What do they care, eh. They're Christians, & not
defendants or plaintiffs anyway. It's someone else's problem.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If the school establishes a religion, this isn't made
constitutional by allowing non-believers to leave.

I'm not sold that what this coach is doing amounts to establishing religion.

If there's a strong correlation between cars being
able to break the speed limit, & cars commonly
breaking the speed limit, then this would be a problem,
even if an individual car at a particular time doesn't
speed.

Cars commonly break the speed limit. But that doesn't mean we pull over cars that aren't speeding just because they might.

That's because you're not considering the full circumstances,
eg, his intent to affect the students, his refusal to pray with
less appearance of color of authority.

Neither of those circumstances matter if there is no evidence that students were pressured to join in, under pain of some penalty for refusing to do so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I disagree. I believe the error is yours.


No.

You complained about my manners and yours were at least as bad. The only mistake that I made was in not realizing that you were a Jew. Jesus was aware of fakes and frauds in his time. He told his followers how to pray. This man did what the fakes and frauds did.

 

[Estro Felino]

If religions of staff & students are to be made known by
schools having religious ceremonies with non-believers
noticeably abstaining, this opens up the certainty that
dominant religions will tend to treat others with less regard.
Separation of church & state benefits public schools by
allowing students & staff to keep religion from being
made known to all, & having it be a factor in participation.
Christians...
Atheist worker fired after refusing to attend company prayer meeting...

It reminds me of the default in US courts to swear to God
(the Judeo-Christian god) to tell the truth. To request a
secular oath is to notify judge & jury that one is not of
their faith, which is generally majority Christian.
This can have a prejudicial effect.
What do they care, eh. They're Christians, & not
defendants or plaintiffs anyway. It's someone else's problem.

That's absolutely relevant. But this employee can simply be invited not to do it again. Dismissal is a disproportionate measure.

 

[Poisonshady313]

You complained about my manners and yours were at least as bad. The only mistake that I made was in not realizing that you were a Jew.

I will continue to respectfully disagree with you on both of those points. Move on.

Jesus was aware of fakes and frauds in his time. He told his followers how to pray. This man did what the fakes and frauds did.

Fine... I'll grant you the false piety thing

 

[Revoltingest]

Neither of those circumstances matter if there is no evidence that students were pressured to join in, under pain of some penalty for refusing to do so.

The possibility that there was no unjust treatment
of non-believers doesn't negate the tendency for
dominant religions to oppress others. They don't
need expressed penalties or pressure to join. They
need only discriminate in subtle ways, eg, tend to
more easily cut non-believers from the team.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's absolutely relevant. But this employee can simply invited not to do it again. Dismissal is a disproportionate measure.

It's what believers so often do though when religion
is made integral to an otherwise secularly purposed
organization, eg, business, school.
And Christians & Jews should take note....
In my area, some public school districts are majority Muslim.
Would you want their teachers & coaches leading your kids
in prayers to Allah? Do you believe your kids would receive
equal treatment when they abstain from the call to prayer,
thereby making their kafir status known?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Generally, Christians who want school prayer back
don't imagine that allowing their prayers would also
mean allowing competing religions.

I am not a Christian, and I do not want school prayer back. I am not convinced that what this coach has done rises to that level.

This illustrates the problem that many people want
their religion institutionalized in public schools, but
not ones they dislike. That poses major constitutional
problems for the courts, ie, some religions must have
favor compared to others.

Doesn't illustrate the point as well as you'd hope... I don't want Christians leading public schools in prayer. I don't even want Jews leading public schools in prayer.

The question is, did what this coach do rise to the level of leading school prayer, if the students are free to walk away without repercussion? I don't believe so.

We're not talking about just any Satanist, but a coach or
other school official, who may now induce others to
participate (as did this guy).

When I was in my high school chorus, I refused to sing especially religious Christian songs. And despite my music teacher's argument that "it's just music", I was able to refuse without being treated differently, without my grade suffering, without my ability to participate in the chorus suffering.

There was no need to fire my teacher. Even though he had a position of authority and could have picked a more secular selection.

I think there's a difference between evidence of wrongdoing vs being afraid of the potential of wrongdoing.

If students were being singled out for not praying, then I agree. Fire the guy and shame on the court for supporting him.

But so far all I'm hearing is that he was highly visible and "peer pressure" etc.

If provided evidence that any of his athletes ever suffered from not joining his post game prayer, I'll change my tune.

 

[Poisonshady313]

They
need only discriminate in subtle ways, eg, tend to
more easily cut non-believers from the team.

Is there evidence that this particular coach did this sort of thing?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not a Christian, and I do not want school prayer back. I am not convinced that what this coach has done rises to that level.


Doesn't illustrate the point as well as you'd hope... I don't want Christians leading public schools in prayer. I don't even want Jews leading public schools in prayer.

The question is, did what this coach do rise to the level of leading school prayer, if the students are free to walk away without repercussion? I don't believe so.



When I was in my high school chorus, I refused to sing especially religious Christian songs. And despite my music teacher's argument that "it's just music", I was able to refuse without being treated differently, without my grade suffering, without my ability to participate in the chorus suffering.

There was no need to fire my teacher. Even though he had a position of authority and could have picked a more secular selection.

I think there's a difference between evidence of wrongdoing vs being afraid of the potential of wrongdoing.

If students were being singled out for not praying, then I agree. Fire the guy and shame on the court for supporting him.

But so far all I'm hearing is that he was highly visible and "peer pressure" etc.

If provided evidence that any of his athletes ever suffered from not joining his post game prayer, I'll change my tune.

This coach is one person. And you're OK with his
gathering students around for the purpose of group
prayer. But the law must deal with the general case.
It's a coach this time. But the ruling applies to any
public school staff, eg, teacher, principal. And you
cannot presume that staff being able to establish
a religion within each one's purview will be handled
with tolerance & equality.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is there evidence that this particular coach did this sort of thing?

None that I know of.
Do you have any evidence that the coach
treated all believers & all nons the same?
How about evidence that other newly enabled
school staff will all handle school prayers with
fairness?
After all, this decision is now the law of the land,
& will be applied everywhere in any public school.

 

[Poisonshady313]

This coach is one person. And you're OK with his
gathering students around for the purpose of group
prayer. But the law must deal with the general case.
It's a coach this time. But the ruling applies to any
public school staff, eg, teacher, principal. And you
cannot presume that staff being able to establish
a religion within each one's purview will be handled
with tolerance & equality.

So fire the staff that discriminates against their students.

But if I'm on the team, and the coach takes a knee at the 50 yard line after the game, and I'm perfectly free to hit the showers and head home... then I don't care if the coach is Christian, Muslim, Satanist, or Jedi... it matters not as long as he doesn't have a captive audience and those who don't join in aren't treated any differently.

You're simply assuming unfair treatment will happen. I need evidence that it did happen.