Supreme Court ruling on prayer case

[Poisonshady313]

None that I know of.
Do you have any evidence that the coach
treated all believers & all nons the same?

If nobody reported being treated unfairly, why assume that it's happening? Just because it COULD happen doesn't mean it DID happen.

How about evidence that other newly enabled
school staff will all handle school prayers with
fairness?
After all, this decision is now the law of the land,
& will be applied everywhere in any public school.

I would expect these things to be handled on a case by case basis.

If a coach wants to pray, fine. If students want to join, fine. If students who don't join are discriminated against, not fine. Fire that teacher, and send a message that discrimination isn't ok.

 

[Revoltingest]

So fire the staff that discriminates against their students.

One problem is that discrimination can be subtle.
It might not be detected. Or it might be intentional, & ignored.
But if a problem is found, then damage has already been done.
Victims might never be made whole, or the district could pay
hefty damages.
The better solution is to not have religion be established
by staff in public schools.

But if I'm on the team, and the coach takes a knee at the 50 yard line after the game, and I'm perfectly free to hit the showers and head home... then I don't care if the coach is Christian, Muslim, Satanist, or Jedi... it matters not as long as he doesn't have a captive audience and those who don't join in aren't treated any differently.

It's easy to construct scenarios wherein all school
staff express religion with no adverse consequences.
But the potential for trouble exists nonetheless.
And now it's not just one school doing this. It can be
any school in the entire country.

You're simply assuming unfair treatment will happen. I need evidence that it did happen.

It's fair to assume it will happen, & not just cuz of Murphy's
Law. It's historically happened when public schools
have a standard religion. Christian prayer was commonly
compulsory when I was in elementary school. No teacher
ever offered exemption.

 

[Revoltingest]

If nobody reported being treated unfairly, why assume that it's happening? Just because it COULD happen doesn't mean it DID happen.


I would expect these things to be handled on a case by case basis.

If a coach wants to pray, fine. If students want to join, fine. If students who don't join are discriminated against, not fine. Fire that teacher, and send a message that discrimination isn't ok.

I've nothing to add.

 

[Poisonshady313]

One problem is that discrimination can be subtle.
It might not be detected. Or it might be intentional, & ignored.
But if a problem is found, then damage has already been done.
Victims might never be made whole, or the district could pay
hefty damages.
The better solution is to not have religion be established
by staff in public schools.

It's easy to construct scenarios wherein all school
staff express religion with no adverse consequences.
But the potential for trouble exists nonetheless.
And now it's not just one school doing this. It can be
any school in the entire country.

It's fair to assume it will happen, & not just cuz of Murphy's
Law. It's historically happened when public schools
have a standard religion. Christian prayer was commonly
compulsory when I was in elementary school. No teacher
ever offered exemption.

Based on what I've read about this teacher, I don't see it rising to the level of "establishing religion".
I have no reason to believe that coach kneeling on the 50 yard line gives the school a standard religion.

And I don't believe for one second that this sort of thing would be ignored. Even if the student doesn't speak up against the coach/school, the parent certainly would.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I've nothing to add.

I'd like to sincerely thank you for providing an excellent example of how to have a civil disagreement here at RF.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd like to sincerely thank you for providing an excellent example of how to have a civil disagreement here at RF.

If you didn't have such a cute avatar,
I'd savage your racial heritage.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this coach
A. Expected any student to join him in prayer ?
B. Singled out any student who did not join him?

Should the court rule on what someone is "perfectly capable" of doing?

Should a cop pull over a driver for doing nothing wrong, and ticket said driver because he's perfectly capable of breaking the speed limit?

Im certainly no fan of teachers or coaches leading students in prayer in public schools. As a Jewish person who went to public school in this county, I can assure you I wouldn't tolerate it.

But if the coach knelt in prayer AFTER the game, when nobody is expected to stick around and/or join him, then I don't think he's done anything wrong.

Let us begin with the 50 yard line -- dead centre of a football field, and therefore of some significance. Also the timing, immediately at the end of the game, before players have even had a chance to head to the showers.

Justice Sonya Sotomayor, in her dissent, cast doubt on the idea that the coach offered his prayers “quietly, while his students were otherwise occupied.” She included a photograph of Coach Kennedy at one of his game night prayers. In the picture, he stands surrounded by a dense group of dozens of high school football players, uniformed and kneeling at his feet. Kennedy is speaking with a football helmet in his hand, stretched high above his head in what looks like a gesture of command. Spectators can be seen in the background, looking on from the stands. Quiet and private this was not.

During Kennedy’s employment, the school district took pains to balance the coach’s desire for prayer with their own obligations to remain religiously neutral. Starting from when he began coaching in 2008, Kennedy, an evangelical Christian, initially prayed to himself at games, a practice that nobody had a problem with. He says that he got the initial idea from a movie, the low-budget 2006 Christian football drama “Facing the Giants,” which he saw on TV. The film features a fictional coach who prays with his high school football team. But at some point, Kennedy’s praying became louder, and more public. He would stand on the 50-yardline just after the final whistle, and pray out loud. Teen athletes, both from his team and from the opposing side, would kneel with him in a large scrum; Kennedy mixed his prayers with pep talks. Kennedy says that the visible center of the field was an important location for him. “It made sense to do it on the field of battle,” he told the reporter Adam Liptak.

It is these public prayers, conducted while Kennedy was acting in his official capacity as the coach, that became an issue. The school tried to accommodate Kennedy, offering him ways to exercise his faith that did not involve students, and did not risk giving the impression that his religion was endorsed by the public school. Kennedy refused, and lawyered up. He eventually left the school – voluntarily – and began to claim that the district’s policies amounted to both religious discrimination and a violation of his free speech rights.

 

[Revoltingest]

Let us begin with the 50 yard line -- dead centre of a football field, and therefore of some significance. Also the timing, immediately at the end of the game, before players have even had a chance to head to the showers.

Justice Sonya Sotomayor, in her dissent, cast doubt on the idea that the coach offered his prayers “quietly, while his students were otherwise occupied.” She included a photograph of Coach Kennedy at one of his game night prayers. In the picture, he stands surrounded by a dense group of dozens of high school football players, uniformed and kneeling at his feet. Kennedy is speaking with a football helmet in his hand, stretched high above his head in what looks like a gesture of command. Spectators can be seen in the background, looking on from the stands. Quiet and private this was not.

During Kennedy’s employment, the school district took pains to balance the coach’s desire for prayer with their own obligations to remain religiously neutral. Starting from when he began coaching in 2008, Kennedy, an evangelical Christian, initially prayed to himself at games, a practice that nobody had a problem with. He says that he got the initial idea from a movie, the low-budget 2006 Christian football drama “Facing the Giants,” which he saw on TV. The film features a fictional coach who prays with his high school football team. But at some point, Kennedy’s praying became louder, and more public. He would stand on the 50-yardline just after the final whistle, and pray out loud. Teen athletes, both from his team and from the opposing side, would kneel with him in a large scrum; Kennedy mixed his prayers with pep talks. Kennedy says that the visible center of the field was an important location for him. “It made sense to do it on the field of battle,” he told the reporter Adam Liptak.

It is these public prayers, conducted while Kennedy was acting in his official capacity as the coach, that became an issue. The school tried to accommodate Kennedy, offering him ways to exercise his faith that did not involve students, and did not risk giving the impression that his religion was endorsed by the public school. Kennedy refused, and lawyered up. He eventually left the school – voluntarily – and began to claim that the district’s policies amounted to both religious discrimination and a violation of his free speech rights.

It seems strongly that this conduct is "establishment" of
religion. This decision applies throughout the land's public
schools, and....
- Isn't limited to coaches. It could be teachers, principals,
& even janitors (but never Willie).
- Allows that the staff may treat their religion as the default
religion, with the nons right being only to self exclude.
- Feeds the desire of many who want their religion taught
in public schools. Many Christians feel entitled to this, &
have long sought it.

Robert Jeffress Wants 10 Commandments Taught in Public Schools
A State Rep. Wants Ten Commandments Posted in Public Schools, Because Republicans Say So
North Carolina School Board Wants Ten Commandments Displayed In Each School | iHeart
Young says Ivey wants Ten Commandments in all schools

If government uses taxpayer dollars to hire staff & build
facilities that celebrate a particular religion, does this not
constitute establishment because there is no evidence of
overt oppression? And if there were, would the sole remedy
(as suggested) be to mitigate, punish &/or cure each
singular instance of oppression?

This appears to be the beginning of voiding the Incorporation
Doctrine regarding the 1st Amendment by a court that's begun
to recognize its application to the 2nd Amendment. This is
inconsistent legal philosophy, & hardly stare decisis.
We're in for a rough ride until this cabal has its teeth pulled.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

there were not "free to walk away". Peer pressure at that age and especially on a team like that is intense.

The people that are not doing anything wrong should not be the ones that walk away.

This is something that a lot of people seem not to understand. And not only peer pressure, but group dynamics, the desire for approval from authority (Coach Kennedy) and many other very real psychological factors are at play here. And that is why I so heartily agree with the Court dissenters.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It seems strongly that this conduct is "establishment" of
religion. This decision applies throughout the land's public
schools, and....
- Isn't limited to coaches. It could be teachers, principals,
& even janitors (but never Willie).
- Allows that the staff may treat their religion as the default
religion, with the nons right being only to self exclude.
- Feeds the desire of many who want their religion taught
in public schools. Many Christians feel entitled to this, &
have long sought it.

Robert Jeffress Wants 10 Commandments Taught in Public Schools
A State Rep. Wants Ten Commandments Posted in Public Schools, Because Republicans Say So
North Carolina School Board Wants Ten Commandments Displayed In Each School | iHeart
Young says Ivey wants Ten Commandments in all schools

If government uses taxpayer dollars to hire staff & build
facilities that celebrate a particular religion, does this not
constitute establishment because there is no evidence of
overt oppression? And if there were, would the sole remedy
(as suggested) be to mitigate, punish &/or cure each
singular instance of oppression?

This appears to be the beginning of voiding the Incorporation
Doctrine regarding the 1st Amendment by a court that's begun
to recognize its application to the 2nd Amendment. This is
inconsistent legal philosophy, & hardly stare decisis.
We're in for a rough ride until this cabal has its teeth pulled.

Yes, you are indeed in for a rough ride. And remember, Mitch McConnell has owned up to the fact that this has truly been his "life's work." The "champions" of liberty are really, really big on taking away liberties they themselves aren't comfortable with.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, you are indeed in for a rough ride. And remember, Mitch McConnell has owned up to the fact that this has truly been his "life's work." The "champions" of liberty are really, really big on taking away liberties they themselves aren't comfortable with.

They just have a different vision of "liberty", which
is the freedom to live according to their religion.
More & more Republicans are now openly gunning
for prosecuting homo sex, making Christianity part
of public school education, & banning contraception.

 

[Estro Felino]

They just have a different vision of "liberty", which
is the freedom to live according to their religion.
More & more Republicans are now openly gunning
for prosecuting homo sex, making Christianity part
of public school education, & banning contraception.

Democracy is about letting local governments determine their own social, cultural and political life and decide about their own future. A distant federal government deciding instead is the death of democracy.
In my humble opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They just have a different vision of "liberty", which
is the freedom to live according to their religion.
More & more Republicans are now openly gunning
for prosecuting homo sex, making Christianity part
of public school education, & banning contraception.

And I am so glad that I finally left that party. At least I did so before Trump was elected. A wall did not have to quite fall on me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Democracy is about letting local governments determine their own social, cultural and political life and decide about their own future. A distant federal government deciding instead is the death of democracy.
In my humble opinion.

The federal Constitution's Bill Of Rights places limits
(under the Incorporation Doctrine) on what state &
local governments can do & impose upon people.
Do you reject the idea of nationally enforced civil rights?

 

[Revoltingest]

And I am so glad that I finally left that party. At least I did so before Trump was elected. A wall did not have to quite fall on me.

Your former party needs your influence more than ever.
Drag them back to sanity, please.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your former party needs your influence more than ever.
Drag them back to sanity, please.

I wish that I could. I have tried.

I am a voice crying out in the wilderness

 

[Revoltingest]

I wish that I could. I have tried.

I am a voice crying out in the wilderness

The trick is to not expect any detectable results.

 

[Estro Felino]

The federal Constitution's Bill Of Rights places limits
(under the Incorporation Doctrine) on what state &
local governments can do & impose upon people.
Do you reject the idea of nationally enforced civil rights?

I am not understanding why the death penalty is decided at local level while abortion should not.
If the first is, so should the latter.
They both affect life, I think.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not understanding why the death penalty is decided at local level while abortion should not.
If the first is, so should the latter.
They both affect life, I think.

The death penalty is constitutional.
The federal gov hasn't made it illegal.
So each state decides whether to employ it.

Abortion is constitutional, however no longer a right.
So each state can decide whether to allow it.

The fact that both issues affect life isn't really
all that much to have in common. Values &
views regarding life vary greatly from person to
person, religion to religion, & society to society.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's absolutely relevant. But this employee can simply be invited not to do it again. Dismissal is a disproportionate measure.

He was invited not to do it again, repeatedly. He refused, and instead lawyered up, because he was more interested in being loud and proud at center field, surrounded by his acolytes, than he was in praying. That was all presented during oral arguments.