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Surprising lack of knowledge among theists.

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
See a pattern?
Yeah, and it has nothing to do with your post.

The precepts of loving others MORE than you love yourself can be handed down VERBALLY and BY EXAMPLE as well as through scriptures. This and God's love for us are the only essential truths you need to really worship God in any way YOU see fit. Everything else is just window dressing.

I Corinthians 8:1 Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
NIV

The problem with MANY Christians today is that they are Bible smart and yet never put their knowledge into gear. Rather, they use their knowledge to try to merely win debates rather than turning it on themselves to actually become more Christlike. They strain gnats while swallowing camels.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
You don't buy a car without test driving it. You don't buy milk without checking the date. You don't sign anything without reading it.
These are not academic understandings. I can buy a car with or without a test drive, but I don't need to know how what went into the manufacturing or how an engine works in order to buy and drive a car.


You don't model your entire life after a person who lived 2000 years ago if you don't know a thing about his life.
Well, I agree that it would be hard to model oneself after Jesus without knowing anything about his teachings. But one certainly doesn't need to know the names of his disciples or that his most famous sermon is referred to as the Sermon on the Mount.


If a person reads something, they might learn something. Nothing is wrong with that.
As Pete said, NO ONE is saying that there's anything wrong with it. But in Christianity, you don't have to. Heck, I don't know any religion where you have to have an academic understanding of it in order to be considered a good adherent. Why the higher standard for Christianity?
 

kai

ragamuffin
well just some understanding would be cool though huh?
you would think people would be interested enough to be inquisitive about the guy.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Heck, I don't know any religion where you have to have an academic understanding of it in order to be considered a good adherent. Why the higher standard for Christianity?

LOL. I wonder if there is such a religion... Perhaps scientology? The have like different levels and clears and preclears etc etc.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Not true. In other parts of the world, where religion isn't as fluid as in the U.S., Christianity functions like an ethnicity similar to Judaism. As I said in a previous post, Djamila can tell whether someone in Bosnia is Christian or Muslim based only on their last name. It is inherited. It is "tribal."

Even in the U.S., I know many, many people who consider themselves Christian even tho they don't go to church and don't believe most of the stuff of their respective traditions. But if you were to suggest to them that they were actually "closet atheists" who only identify as Christian because of social pressure, they would say no. They identify as Christian because that is part of their identity.

As I said in a previous post, that does happen. That is not who the OP is concerned with, though.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I have criticized Christianity. There are Christian theologians who have criticized Christianity. One of my favorite quotes from Gandhi is an scathing indictment against Christianity.

There is a big difference between comparing Christianity to a virus or a loaded weapon and pointing out things like how few Christians actually follow the teachings of Christ, or how dangerous it is to base one's theology on an after-life at the expense of this life.

Certain people keep saying that the criticisms against Dawkins are levied against him personally instead of his ideas. Ironically (or not) that's how I feel about his criticisms of Christianity. The OP starts with (paraphrasing) "look at how stupid these Christians are; they don't even know the difference between Moses and Peter." That is NOT a criticism against Christianity. It's an attack against Christians.

Yes, a criticism of Christians. So, what's the point? The problem is that you hear Christianity compared to a virus, and you immediately shut down. You don't want to hear why, the statement's enough for you. Then you respond to the "insult", when in reality it's not really an insult, which you would have realized had you taken the time to understand the analogy.

Why? If someone cited their native myths as something they rely on, would you insist that they must know who wrote the stories and when?

No, not as long as the understood them as myths with a non-literal meaning. Many Christians don't understand the Bible to be that, though. If they wnat to think of it as completely historically accurate, or even historical at all and divine in nature, then they should know about how it was written.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
As Pete said, NO ONE is saying that there's anything wrong with it. But in Christianity, you don't have to. Heck, I don't know any religion where you have to have an academic understanding of it in order to be considered a good adherent. Why the higher standard for Christianity?

So then, blind faith makes you happy.

At least now I know where you stand.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Yes, but only if the Christian him or herself is claiming that it makes a difference.
Well that's when it comes up. For me it's usually in the context of a discussion of homosexuality or gay marriage. The Christian will assert that these actions would be sins, according to their Bible. Then I have to point out to them certain facts about their Bible, of which they were ignorant. Their preacher or equivalent told them it was a sin; they didn't read the Bible themselves to find out.

I think we're conflating several levels/issues here: You've talked about how Christians should know how their bible was "written" (it was actually redacted). And you've talked about how Christians should know what's actually in the bible. Those are two different things.
Yes.

My position is this:

If there's a Christian who believes that Jesus is Lord and tries to be like Jesus and tries to do good, I see no reason to say that he or she is not a "good" Christian because she or he thinks Moses was one of the 12 apostles. And I certainly see no basis upon which to say that he or she is not a good Christian because she or he doesn't know that the gospels weren't recorded until decades after Jesus' death.
I would never presume to pass judgment on whether someone is a "good" Christian, nor do I care. I care whether they are a good person and how they treat me. Remember, to me a good Christian may be someone who does a thorough job of burning down my village, so that doesn't interest me much. *see below. Anyway, it seems to me that if they want to be like Jesus, they obviously need to learn at a minimum what Jesus was like, no? But to me there's always a meta-question: How do we know that there was a Jesus, what, if anything, He actually did, His nature, relationship to God, etc. So if you're saying that we know all that stuff because the Bible tell us, then I would think your next questions would be about the Bible, who wrote it, how we know it's true, etc.

If there's a Christian who is out preaching that abortion is a sin (moral issue), then I think it perfectly legitimate to point out that the bible carries no such injunction and that he or she ought to be more familiar with the text from which she or he is moralizing.
Exactly. This usually comes up in the context of a discussion of issues such as that. I can't count how many times Christians have told me that homosexuality, including lesbianism, is strictly prohibited by their religion, and I have pointed out to them that lesbianism is not prohibited at all, unlike say remarriage after divorce, which clearly is. Everyone here is sick of hearing it from me, no doubt. Furthermore, I've had Christians tell me that it doesn't matter, they know it's a sin anyway!
(1) It's a sin because the Bible says so.
(2) Actually, the Bible doesn't say so.
(3) It's a sin anyway.
What?

And if there's a Christian who is out preaching that the world was created in six days because the bible says so (science issue), then I think it perfectly legitimate to point out the history of the bible, its multiple authors, redactions, problems with translations, etc.
Yes, true. But the main way this comes up for me is in a discussion about the existence of God and validity of their religion. The Christian will argue that, for example, they know that God exists because of the Bible. So obviously they're relying on the Bible as their source/authority for the assertion that God exists and is named Yahweh, created the earth, gave us commandments, gave His only begotten son, etc. So then the next obvious question is: why believe the Bible? So it follows that they should have some knowledge about why they consider the Bible to authoritative. But what you find is that it's axiomatic; they've never asked the question. They just assume that the Bible is the word of God, as well as evidence of God. Say what?

*re: good Christian. This reminds me of an internet interaction with a very well known contributor to TWeb, jpholding. He is a real schmuck who insults and derides anyone who takes issue with Christianity as he sees it, and when challenged, asserts that it is Biblical to call non-believers rude names, and then cites scripture in support of being a jerk in this way. I always agreed heartily with him that his religion requires him to act like a jerk, but that being an atheist I am free from such a requirement.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
While I take issue with the characterization that atheists are curious while Christians are not, I do agree, as I said in the beginning, that Christianity is ultimately a "heart" religion. Who told the story when is not important. What is important is the relationship with Christ.

And lest anyone disdain this, keep in mind that this is likely why Christianity has been as successful as it has. It is egalitarian. Salvation isn't based on book learning, which traditionally was available only to a select few. Salvation was open to anyone who accepted Christ. While we today generally see that requirement as divisive and exclusivist, in its own way it is a great equalizer.
In fact, Martin Luther said: Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word....There is a (mostly Protestant) tradition against learning and reason in favor of blind faith. In Christianity faith, meaning believing without or even in spite of the evidence, is a virtue. To return to Dawkins, this is what he is criticizing, and why he advocates not respecting this mode of "thought."
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
It seems to me that if you try to follow the Bible without reading it, then you're vulnerable to any glib preacher who tells you what he thinks it says.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
As Pete said, NO ONE is saying that there's anything wrong with it. But in Christianity, you don't have to. Heck, I don't know any religion where you have to have an academic understanding of it in order to be considered a good adherent. Why the higher standard for Christianity?
Jewish tradition DOES stress an academic understanding of Torah. The concept is that it's important to know the word of God.

OTOH, I believe it was the great and learned Rabbi Hillel who, when pressed to convey all of Torah while standing on one foot, replied, "Do not unto others what you would not have done to you. The rest is commentary." However, he is also said to have added, "Now go study Torah."
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Jewish tradition DOES stress an academic understanding of Torah. The concept is that it's important to know the word of God.

OTOH, I believe it was the great and learned Rabbi Hillel who, when pressed to convey all of Torah while standing on one foot, replied, "Do not unto others what you would not have done to you. The rest is commentary." However, he is also said to have added, "Now go study Torah."

That's right.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
So then, blind faith makes you happy.
You apparently flunked snappy comebacks 101. That or you have no clue what "blind faith" means. Or both! Intimating the Lilithu's faith is somehow blind, is completely missing the point in favor of your own ignorance on how and why Christians believe.
At least now I know where you stand.
No, this reveals more where YOU stand in terms of pettiness.
It seems to me that if you try to follow the Bible without reading it, then you're vulnerable to any glib preacher who tells you what he thinks it says.
Many preachers twist the scriptures to their and their follower's destruction USING the scriptures. They almost always descend into HATE and INTOLERANCE.
There is a (mostly Protestant) tradition against learning and reason in favor of blind faith. In Christianity faith,
These people are few and far between, and you mistake their vitriol for numbers. Dawkins makes the same mistakes. He is indiscriminate in his condemnation of the religious world, and that makes his concepts unimportant to me.
Scientists who pit evolution against religion are just as wrong as those theists who pit religion against science.
 

Smoke

Done here.
You apparently flunked snappy comebacks 101. That or you have no clue what "blind faith" means. Or both! Intimating the Lilithu's faith is somehow blind, is completely missing the point in favor of your own ignorance on how and why Christians believe.
You do know lilithu's not a Christian, right? :)
 

science_is_my_god

Philosophical Monist
I dunno people, seriously, don't you want to know why you should hold faith in your religion? I hope you realize that without the bible, Christianity would have absolutely no way of backing up it's claims. When you go to church, aren't the teachings of "loving thy lord" taken straight out of the bible? Don't you think you should actually know some kind of actual account of Jesus' historical crucifixion? Or do you really put your faith in dogmatic "truth" preached by people that want to spread thier religion around?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Most Christians would agree that the fact that Jesus actually was resurrected is central to their faith. This "fact" is known because we read it in the Bible, and no other way. So, who wrote it there? Did they witness it? Or did they hear it passed down for a few decades before anyone wrote down a fourth-hand version of those events? Don't you think it makes a difference? Or do you just uncritically accept that "fact" for no particular reason?
 

Zaphod Beeblebrox

Zarking Fardwarks!
It seems to me that if you try to follow the Bible without reading it, then you're vulnerable to any glib preacher who tells you what he thinks it says.
I think this is standard for most Christians, particularly young ones. All they can really rely, on early in their Christian walk, is the words of others - the leaders or the other Christans who are acting as mentors.

It takes a lot of effort to go beyond that, to start studying the bible for yourself and coming up with your own interpretations. It's not easy, even when you claim to have the Holy Spirit guiding you. It took me about 15 years looking at scripture carefully and trying to bring my own interpretations on it. You have to drop the study books that try to guide you to a particular way of thinking and start to think for yourself. It takes a lot of that to actually be confident enough to start questioning what is being preached and what other Christians are claiming based on their interpretations.
 
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