"Suryaputra" and "Daanveer"; Karna

[Subhankar Zac]

The pain arises when there is attachment between the soul and the body. There are some people who die peacefully, because they understand that the soul is leaving the body. It is only when there is attachment to these material objects (like one's family, wealth beauty) that death is truly painful. As for physical pain, I would say that being embedded with swords and arrows, while painful initially is not that painful. Actually in such cases (extreme blood loss) the body seems to go into shock anyway.

How would you know that it's not that painful?

 

[निताइ dasa]

How would you know that it's not that painful?

I'm not saying its not. It really depends on the case. But most of the fear of death, in hindsight, seems not to be because of the pain of death, but because of the pain of perceived loss (I will lose my body, and my family and my money). Attachment to that which is temporary is a source of suffering in this world. even the Buddhist accept this. We Vaishnavs go further and say to attach ones mind to the eternal (God).

 

[Subhankar Zac]

I'm not saying its not. It really depends on the case. But most of the fear of death, in hindsight, seems not to be because of the pain of death, but because of the pain of perceived loss (I will lose my body, and my family and my money). Attachment to that which is temporary is a source of suffering in this world. even the Buddhist accept this. We Vaishnavs go further and say to attach ones mind to the eternal (God).

I don't care for my body if I could know the Ultimate truth. I m simply scared of the pain that I'll get before dying, which is why I prefer death by a single on the top of my head or die at night in a Bhutanese buddhist monastery

 

[sayak83]

If charioteers were allowed to defend themselves in war with weapons, why was karna not allowed to be a disciple of Drona or was insulted as a "Sutaputra" when we went the arena to show off his skills for the first time?

Karna was a pupil of Drona for quite sometime, but he left because he felt (probably) that Drona neglected him compared to the Kuru princes and particularly Arjuna.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01135.htm

And, O bull of the Bharata race, many other princes also flocked to that best of Brahmanas for instruction in arms. The Vrishnis and the Andhakas, and princes from various lands, and the (adopted) son of Radha of the Suta caste, (Karna), all became pupils of Drona. But of them all, the Suta child Karna, from jealousy, frequently defied Arjuna, and supported by Duryodhana, used to disregard the Pandavas. Arjuna, however, from devotion to the science of arms, always stayed by the side of his preceptor, and in skill, strength of arms, and perseverance, excelled all (his class-fellows). Indeed, although the instruction the preceptor gave, was the same in the case of all, yet in lightness and skill Arjuna became the foremost of all his fellow-pupils. And Drona was convinced that none of his pupils would (at any time) be able to be equal to that son of Indra.

Also Karna was given permission to show his talents in the combat. He was not however given permission for challenging Arjuna to a duel unto death in the arena. This is excerpt from the day of the arena.

'O Partha, I shall perform feats before this gazing multitude; excelling all thou hast performed! Beholding them, thou shall be amazed.' And, O thou best of those blest with speech, he had hardly done when the spectators stood up all at once, uplifted by some instrument, as it were. And, O tiger among men, Duryodhana was filled with delight, while Vibhatsu was instantly all abashment and anger.Then with the permission of Drona, the mighty Karna, delighting in battle, there did all that Partha had done before. And, O Bharata, Duryodhana with his brothers thereupon embraced Karna in joy and then addressed him saying, 'Welcome O mighty-armed warrior! I have obtained thee by good fortune, O polite one! Live thou as thou pleasest, and command me, and the kingdom of the Kurus.' Kama replied, 'When thou hast said it, I regard it as already accomplished. I only long for thy friendship. And, O lord, my wish is even for a single combat with Arjuna.' Duryodhana said, 'Do thou with me enjoy the good things of life! Be thou the benefactor of thy friend, and, O represser of enemies, place thou thy feet on the heads of all foes."
........................................................................................................................................................
Kripa, knowing all duties and cognisant of the rules regulating duels, addressed Karna, saying 'This Pandava, who is the youngest son of Kunti, belongeth to the Kaurava race: he will engage in combat with thee. But, O mighty-armed one, thou too must tell us thy lineage and the names of thy father and mother and the royal line of which thou art the ornament. Learning all this, Partha will fight with thee or not (as he will think fit). Sons of kings never fight with men of inglorious lineage.'
"Vaisampayana continued, 'When he was thus addressed by Kripa, Karna's countenance became like unto a lotus pale and torn with the pelting showers in the rainy season. Duryodhana said, 'O preceptor, verily the scriptures have it that three classes of persons can lay claim to royalty, viz., persons of the blood royal, heroes, and lastly, those that lead armies. If Phalguna is unwilling to fight with one who is not a king, I will install Karna as king of Anga.'

I think this goes back to the rules of single combat dueling where, according to the rules of war, only kings could duel with kings, prince with prince, archers with archers, foot soldiers with foot soldiers. But, in any case, while Karna was rightful in showcasing his skills in the tournament, how exactly was he within rights in asking for a single combat duel in a tournament that was not meant as a war arena?

The only person who insulted Karna that day was Bhima, who was basically being Bhima, and protective of his brother. He enjoyed quite a lot of support from the crowds as well as Duryodhana of course.

In short Karna undoubtedly was the target of varna prejudice from the Kshatriyas, but the amount of deprivation has been overplayed, and the Mahabharata at least does not portray the charioteer caste to be treated as badly as depicted in the more medieval texts like the Manu-smriti. By the time of medieval India, chariots were no longer the premiere weapons of war and hence the charioteer caste has fallen from being very well regarded and having high positions close to the kings (like Sanjaya, who also acted as a diplomat during the pre-war negotiations) to mere drivers of coaches etc. That conception of the lowly status of the Suta caste colors many of the later renderings of the epic in popular culture.

 

[4M17]

Lord Krishna used his chakra for something. I have not read all of the Mahabharata.

Yes true Krishna used his chakra to cover the sun while Arjun wanted to kill jayadratha-He did so so that jayadratha come out of his hiding place and Arjuna could kill him since Arjuna had vowed that either he'll kill jayadratha b4 the night falls or he'll commit suicide so all kauravas arranged to protect jayadratha & it was very difficult even for a warrior of Arjuna's class to get jayadratha so Krishna hid the sun & every1 thought it was night & jayadratha came out to mock Arjun but to his gr8 surprise Krishna just took back His chakra & they all realised that it was still day and finally Arjuna cut off jayadratha's head..this shows that Krishna always protects his devotees as well as his devotees' words no matter what... ;-)

 

[4M17]

You do understand that Mahabharata is talking about a full on warrior culture with all Kshatriayas being meat eaters, hunters for sport, performing elaborate animal sacrifices and fighting wars with extreme full frontal ferocity? Only cows belonging to the Brahmanas were protected, otherwise animals were hunted and was considered part of the enemy's force that needs to be killed if the enemy is to be vanquished.
Its a far more viscerally violent culture than one we live in now.

nopes not all ksatriyas were meat eaters...maybe some minority(especially the demoniac types)..animals that were killed during "sport in forest" are in fact the ksatriyas duty to protect the brahmana's & rishi, Tapasvis etc from dangerous animals like tigers & lions, etc and those animals who are killed by ksatriyas or sacrifies during yagna's by the powerful brahmanas of that time attained celestial bodies & ascend to the heavenly planets...
but definetly in kalayug(the iron age), these are prohibited since real ksatriyas or brahmanas of such calibre does not exist that's y in the scriptures it's also mentioned that in the iron age animal sacrifice should not be performed...but at that time such pratice & duties were very relevant and beneficial for evry1 (even the animal who was killed)as well