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Switzerland my allow incest between siblings, and parent and adult children

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
And again, since you seemed to miss the other points I made, and therefore, didn't respond to them, here they are again. Should you fail to make points against them, I'll assume you concede.

I never concede unless I am wrong...and I know I am not about incest ;)

So . . . you don't think people who disagree with you should be allowed to express their beliefs? Why is that?

Depends on if their opinions are likely to damage society and the health of the nation at large or not...

Why do I hate Libertines?

Because man has no freedoms only duties...hand wringing liberals whine like spoilt children, I cant stand them.

As I explained earlier (not that you were actually listening) should a family have a great amount of beneficial genes and no history of defective genes or harmful recessive genes, if they were to have children through incest, they would most likely have children with the same beneficial genetic make-up. How is that not beneficial to the gene pool? And please, actually think about it and answer rather than spout the same response, claiming there are no benefits.

There will always be exceptions...why would I care about that?

That's not exclusive to incest, and you have yet to provide any actual evidence as to how it actually leads to that.

Difficult as incest is not legal and thus no one has ever used it to defend themselves in cases of incestual msexual molestation or rape...obviously :rolleyes:

I was using something called reason....

Do you have any examples of cases where incest among adult siblings has been scientifically proven to be psychologically damaging?

Not on me but I suppose I could find it?

Why?

I've already provided proof that this is false.

No you havent in the slightest....lol....what a joke...considering both your evidence and mine suggests to varying degrees that first cousin incest leads to increased risks of genetic abnomalities in Pakistani children...so tragic.


Because of course it costs money to support people with genetic illnesses...:rolleyes:


Again, I've given you proof that this is also false, in that it is subjective to each individual culture and society.

Lol utter nonesense...incest is taboo in almost all cultures...you really need to to do some learning...your ignorance is shocking.

Really, I would love to hear how you respond to these.

Enjoy.
 
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Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
Some science for Comicaze...

''Man and many other species exhibit strong tendencies to avoid incest. Conspecifics who are intimately associated during the infancy and childhood of one or both do not find each other sexually attractive if alternative mates are available. Migration shortly after puberty, usually by the male, is characteristics of social primates. Incest very seldom occurs, and when it does the copulatory act differs markedly from normal mating. Incest within intact human families is rare. Inbreeding with other close relatives is inhibited by human awareness of inbreeding depression, not by any apparent genetic predisposition. Societies which discourage close inbreeding should be more viable than those which encourage it.''

Current Anthropology © 1981 The University of Chicago Press

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2742614
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
Also

''It is suggested that sexual intercourse between adult males and girls tends to distort an inherent mating-strategy template: female choice of mating partner. The distortion seems to have long-range consequences in the form of myriad psychopathologies, which, in turn, reduce the afflicted individuals' chances for normative marriage and parenting profiles. In addition, a similar dynamic would hypothetically result from adult-male to boy incest. It is suggested that to minimize the chances of adult—child sexual intercourse, incest taboos have historically been reinforced and extended to nonparental adults, especially men, beyond the immediate nuclear family.''


The Journal of Genetic Psychology

http://heldref-publications.metapre...al,55,56;linkingpublicationresults,1:119924,1

Showing that incest aversion is not just linked to comparative morality and genetic health..there are other complexities..such as the above...preventing pedo sex.

Therefore anyone insisting that incest is OK is simply ignorant of important psychological issues...that are wide ranging and evidently complex.

I am sure I will find more things to hang incest with...all I need now is someone to goad me into further action...

Comicaze! You got any more loony liberal nonsense to anger me with?
 
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McBell

Admiral Obvious
Some science for Comicaze...

''Man and many other species exhibit strong tendencies to avoid incest. Conspecifics who are intimately associated during the infancy and childhood of one or both do not find each other sexually attractive if alternative mates are available. Migration shortly after puberty, usually by the male, is characteristics of social primates. Incest very seldom occurs, and when it does the copulatory act differs markedly from normal mating. Incest within intact human families is rare. Inbreeding with other close relatives is inhibited by human awareness of inbreeding depression, not by any apparent genetic predisposition. Societies which discourage close inbreeding should be more viable than those which encourage it.''

Current Anthropology © 1981 The University of Chicago Press

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Also

''It is suggested that sexual intercourse between adult males and girls tends to distort an inherent mating-strategy template: female choice of mating partner. The distortion seems to have long-range consequences in the form of myriad psychopathologies, which, in turn, reduce the afflicted individuals' chances for normative marriage and parenting profiles. In addition, a similar dynamic would hypothetically result from adult-male to boy incest. It is suggested that to minimize the chances of adult—child sexual intercourse, incest taboos have historically been reinforced and extended to nonparental adults, especially men, beyond the immediate nuclear family.''


The Journal of Genetic Psychology

http://heldref-publications.metapre...al,55,56;linkingpublicationresults,1:119924,1

Showing that incest aversion is not just linked to comparative morality and genetic health..there are other complexities..such as the above...preventing pedo sex.

Therefore anyone insisting that incest is OK is simply ignorant of important psychological issues...that are wide ranging and evidently complex.

I am sure I will find more things to hang incest with...all I need now is someone to goad me into further action...

Comicaze! You got any more loony liberal nonsense to anger me with?

Yes, your skill at ratification is duly noted.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Are you still on this? I thought you had admitted that your position was a little excessive.

Therefore anyone insisting that incest is OK is simply ignorant of important psychological issues...that are wide ranging and evidently complex.

Nope. Incest in general isn't harmful. There are effects and problems to be careful of, like psychological issues and possible birth defects, but two related people in a romantic relationship is not inherently wrong.

I am sure I will find more things to hang incest with...all I need now is someone to goad me into further action...
More? Did you already find some things to hang it with? Why didn't you post them?

Comicaze! You got any more loony liberal nonsense to anger me with?

I don't know. By "loony liberal nonsense", do you mean "reasonable, calm discussions of issues rather than blasting things for being disgusting and getting emotional"?
 

Kai'a

Freethinker
Mball, I'm there with you.

Imo. quite a few things I've seen in this debate make sense, but I disagree with these anyway. Such as lumping pedophilia in with incest - sure, a lot of child abuse can happen in the families, and I'd *never* condone that, as the effects on the child are monstrous. But keeping banned incest as a practice between two, entirely consenting and responsible adults? That doesn't seem to be the case of automatic abuse.

Let alone the question of in-breeding doesn't have to step into the equation; with farther relatives, there's lesser risk. And they are *still* relatives. I think the law should specify things like that, take them into account.

Many of the illnesses and diseases *are* hereditary. But they spread *anyway*, it's not like a few of people that live romantically and happen to be family by blood, will add to it in drastic amounts. I think one should be more concerned about the rate of people getting hepatitis through unprotected sex and the like than a *minority* of people who happen to live in an incestuous relationship.

Also, I don't quite understand the tendency to argument with science here. Science can tell only so much about *general tendencies*, and we can agree humans have general tendency to avoid incest. Everyone that argued that side here is a proof of that to me. But science' reach is short for topics as human *relationships*, which are far more complex and individual. Let alone not entirely about biology.
 

Comicaze247

See the previous line
I did not supply that link..you did...so blame yourself if it doesnt work.
:facepalm:
What I mean is, it took you to the page it ended up on when I tried to search for your "article number."

It is already illegal...LOL...it is already banned.
No, it obviously isn't, since the marriages between cousins is already taking place . . .

The article I mention cites that Pakistani children born to first cousins are 13 times more likely to inherit genetic conditions...if you cant see what implications that has for very close relatives...such as siblings...then I dont think anymore needs to be said LOL.
And as I pointed out with the other article, that "13 times more likely" is at odds with another study done by a named organization, which says that it's "2 times more likely." And since I doubt you read anything I quoted, you still don't understand that those statistics only apply to recessive genetic disorders. That does NOT include inherited disorders that are caused by chromosomal disorders, sex-linked conditions, or autosomal dominant conditions. Cousin marriage does NOT influence these.
And who said I can't see the implications? All I'm saying is that your information is weak at best.

I will 'side' with ever is the more accurate...but I certainly will not ignore data supplied from either.
Your statements say otherwise.

As a staff member pointed out...I did not intend to post them in the first place as they were hardly relevant or necessary...so why dont you...yes you know what.
Actually, no I don't know. Why don't I what?
And now you admit that, after you attempted to pretend it was never there.

I never concede unless I am wrong...and I know I am not about incest ;)
It's a fair assumption to make if somebody conveniently excludes arguments in their refutations in an attempt to take people's focus off of them.

Depends on if their opinions are likely to damage society and the health of the nation at large or not...
So in your little world, if someone has a different opinion on what is damaging to society (as that is subjective) than you do, they shouldn't be allowed to express their beliefs. Okay, got it. I hope you never get into any form of government, as that would be damaging to society.

Why do I hate Libertines?

Because man has no freedoms only duties...hand wringing liberals whine like spoilt children, I cant stand them.
Fallacies in Argumentation (Hasty Generalization)
Fallacies in Argumentation (Sweeping Generalization)

There will always be exceptions...why would I care about that?
The point is, incest can be beneficial to the gene pool in those cases.

Difficult as incest is not legal and thus no one has ever used it to defend themselves in cases of incestual msexual molestation or rape...obviously :rolleyes:
Exactly. So you have no evidence to support your claim.
I was using something called reason....
Obviously not, as reason requires proof.

Not on me but I suppose I could find it?

Why?
Because it would support your claim.

No you havent in the slightest....
Again, you obviously failed to read. I'm talking about the evidence I provided earlier in the thread. I provided a link, which you obviously didn't follow. Though I suppose it makes sense, as you're "not interested in my crappy link." But again, I'll provide it for you, along with an excerpt.

Incest taboo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For example, Trobriand Islanders prohibit both sexual relations between a woman and her brother,[5] and between a woman and her father,[6] but they describe these prohibitions in very different ways: relations between a woman and her brother fall within the category of forbidden relations among members of the same clan; relations between a woman and her father do not.[7] This is because the Trobrianders are matrilineal; children belong to the clan of their mother and not of their father. Thus, sexual relations between a man and his mother's sister (and mother's sister's daughter) are also considered incestuous, but relations between a man and his father's sister are not.[8] Indeed, a man and his father's sister will often have a flirtatious relationship, and, far from being taboo, Trobriand society encourages a man and his father's sister, or the daughter of his father's sister to have sexual relations or marry.[9]
Second, anthropologists have pointed out that the social construct "incest" (and the incest taboo) is not the same thing as the biological phenomenon of "inbreeding". In the Trobriand case a man and the daughter of his father's sister, and a man and the daughter of his mother's sister, are equally distant genetically. Biologists would consider mating incestuous in both instances, but Trobrianders consider mating in one case incestuous and in the other, not. Anthropologists have documented a great number of societies where marriages between some first cousins are prohibited as incestuous, while marriages between other first cousins are encouraged. Therefore, the prohibition against incestuous relations in most societies is not based on or motivated by concerns over biological closeness.[20] Nor can it be explained by the effects of inbreeding or natural selection.[21][22]
Again, the definition of incest is subjective to each society.

lol....what a joke...considering both your evidence and mine suggests to varying degrees that first cousin incest leads to increased risks of genetic abnomalities in Pakistani children...so tragic.
:facepalm:
My point was that you're basing your opinions on statistics that are 1) unclear, and 2) are given by some unnamed organization. Please read people's arguments before trying to refute them.

Because of course it costs money to support people with genetic illnesses...:rolleyes:
Fair enough. I read the statement out of context.

Lol utter nonesense...incest is taboo in almost all cultures...you really need to to do some learning...your ignorance is shocking.
Your WILLFUL ignorance is shocking. Read the evidence I've given you.

Oh, I did. Trust me. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Added descriptions for the "Fallacies in Argumentation" links.
 
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Comicaze247

See the previous line
Some science for Comicaze...

''Man and many other species exhibit strong tendencies to avoid incest. Conspecifics who are intimately associated during the infancy and childhood of one or both do not find each other sexually attractive if alternative mates are available. Migration shortly after puberty, usually by the male, is characteristics of social primates. Incest very seldom occurs, and when it does the copulatory act differs markedly from normal mating. Incest within intact human families is rare. Inbreeding with other close relatives is inhibited by human awareness of inbreeding depression, not by any apparent genetic predisposition. Societies which discourage close inbreeding should be more viable than those which encourage it.''

Current Anthropology © 1981 The University of Chicago Press

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
1) This source is 5 years older than I am.
2) More current anthropological research has proven otherwise.
3) THIS SOURCE IS 5 YEARS OLDER THAN I AM.

''It is suggested that sexual intercourse between adult males and girls tends to distort an inherent mating-strategy template: female choice of mating partner. The distortion seems to have long-range consequences in the form of myriad psychopathologies, which, in turn, reduce the afflicted individuals' chances for normative marriage and parenting profiles. In addition, a similar dynamic would hypothetically result from adult-male to boy incest. It is suggested that to minimize the chances of adult—child sexual intercourse, incest taboos have historically been reinforced and extended to nonparental adults, especially men, beyond the immediate nuclear family.''

The Journal of Genetic Psychology

http://heldref-publications.metapre...al,55,56;linkingpublicationresults,1:119924,1
An abstract? Not even a full article? Really?

Showing that incest aversion is not just linked to comparative morality and genetic health..there are other complexities..such as the above...preventing pedo sex.
1) This is 13 years old.
2) This is only an abstract, and therefore, does not include all the information.
3) Do you realize that, historically, men in their 30s used to marry girls in their teens?

Therefore anyone insisting that incest is OK is simply ignorant of important psychological issues...that are wide ranging and evidently complex.
Incest =/= pedophilia
Why are you insisting that this is about adults having sex with children? This is about parents and their ADULT children. Therefore, the ADULT children are capable of making their OWN decisions, choosing to be with the parent or not. Whether or not there was psychological damage prior to the decision is a different situation entirely.

I am sure I will find more things to hang incest with...all I need now is someone to goad me into further action...
You should remove the "more" from that statement, as you haven't hung anything. Your case, however, isn't even hanging. It's on the ground, as it has nothing to stand on.

Comicaze! You got any more loony liberal nonsense to anger me with?
This isn't "loony liberal nonsense." I'm simply providing you with facts. More up-to-date facts than you seem to be able to provide.
 
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