Switzerland my allow incest between siblings, and parent and adult children

[McBell]

Well imagine being in court trying to prove a man raped his 16 year old daughter when he alleges it was mutual incest...rape is hard enough to prove as it is.

But a 16 year old is NOT an adult.
Thus your argument fails.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

But a 16 year old is NOT an adult.
Thus your argument fails.

What are you dribbling on about now you?

 

[McBell]

You would like to live with the father who rapes you eh?

Now you are merely avoiding the question.

Why, you dont believe the story of Lot exists in the Bible?

Why are you avoiding the point made?

It is not punishment to remove an abuser...LOL

what the hell are you talking about now?
You flat out said that the punish for the parent who has a child out of incest should be put to death.
How is an intentional putting to death a parent not punish the child(ren) of said parent?


You seem to be merely going in circles now.

 

[McBell]

What are you dribbling on about now you tiresome....?

I hope that you FINALLY see that your argument about children has no bearing in a discussion about consensual ADULT relationships.

and yes, I completely agree that your whole non sequitur child abuse argument is tiresome.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Now you are merely avoiding the question.

Please re iterate the question....I think somewhere we have gotten our wires crossed.

Why are you avoiding the point made?

I did not.

what the hell are you talking about now?
You flat out said that the punish for the parent who has a child out of incest should be put to death.
How is an intentional putting to death a parent not punish the child(ren) of said parent?

No I didnt mean that..now I see where confusion has set in...I mean execute the parent that has sex with its child.

You seem to be merely going in circles now.

Hopefully not anymore...

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I hope that you FINALLY see that your argument about children has no bearing in a discussion about consensual ADULT relationships.

I did not say it did....

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Ok...had a few thoughts and thought I would simplify what I am actually saying and think.

I Parent/child incestuous relationships (whether consensual or otherwise is irrelevant) are certainly the most damaging in terms of long term psychological health for the child...much evidence supports the fact that incest leaves its victims unable to form healthy sexual relationships suffering from post traumatic stress disorder personality disorders anxiety and depression.
Legalising incest will make it difficult to prove cases of incestual rape and or ensure maximum sentences are given because perpetrators will likely insist any DNA evidence is the result of consensual incestual sexual activity.

As for sibling incest the psychological implications there are as far I have ascertained hardly demand that incest be legalised in that they are quite negative much like those of above...but I agree it is less serious.

II Incest leads to interbreeding and that leads to decreasing fitness of the overall population as more and more people inherit recessive alleles that code for deletrious or dysfunctional causes of inheritable illness.
Which has to lead to increased health care and social security costs.

III Incest (of any kind, even cousins is overstepping the mark quite frankly) is morally unnacceptable to the Primordial Annihilator...a foul betrayal of trust at its worst..but he accepts that his moral view point is entirely subjective and thus irrational HOWEVER it is a common view held by the majority of humanity.
That is undeniable, that is why it remains illegal to bone your own dear mother...thank God.

 

[Comicaze247]

More assumptions...insecure?

Not me...I don't know anyone more self confident than myself...I just respond to all overt and insidious attacks in the same way...with fire.

Okay, just makin' sure.

Pedophilia (forms of it at least) I imagine is perfectly fine with certain people on this thread....since they are so keen on incest....liberal thinking is a slippery slope to disorder and ruin, I mention it to see if the whining liberals take the bait.

May I refer you to these articles about logical fallacies.
Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Post hoc ergo propter hoc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The statement I make means do not presume to know my beliefs because I attach a label to them...people should not have to tolerate what is injurious and base....ie incest.

I didn't presume to know your beliefs. Again, I was questioning your ironic statement to not tell you what to think, but then you assert that people should not have to tolerate something; you're telling people what to think.
hypocrisy - definition of hypocrisy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

I am going to shutup now before I say something I may later on regret...basically incest is sick because it is (if you cant see why, you never will & God help you) and should remain illegal

And you're entitled to your opinion.

anyone who thinks otherwise I would not trust as far as I could throw them...in fact I would not associate with someone who had that kind of mindscape...

That's your perogative.

such people are to me utterly polarised to my world view...and as far as I am concerned an enemy of man to be suppressed and silenced at every opportunity.

So . . . you don't think people who disagree with you should be allowed to express their beliefs? Why is that?

I absolutely despise dogooder left wing hand wringing libertine attitudes....

Why?

There are no benefits in incest...

As I explained earlier (not that you were actually listening) should a family have a great amount of beneficial genes and no history of defective genes or harmful recessive genes, if they were to have children through incest, they would most likely have children with the same beneficial genetic make-up. How is that not beneficial to the gene pool? And please, actually think about it and answer rather than spout the same response, claiming there are no benefits.

I would prefer for all citizens to have their DNA profiled...the law must be obeyed...even if people dont like it.

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

You say you hate leftist views, and yet your suggestion is very leftist in terms of governmental control.

Cousins should not marry either..that is borderline incest.

Actually, it's not borderline. It is incest.

in-cest
1. sexual intercourse between closely related persons.

Thats my last post on the subject..before I get too angry and delete my account here on RF.

If encountering challenges to your views (which is required for actual learning) is not something you want, then RF is not for you.

It doesnt matter...legalising incest will make it more difficult to prosecute child abusers.

You still have yet to provide evidence as to how. All you've given us is the slippery slope fallacy.

You would like to live with the father who rapes you eh?

Weird...

Clearly, you've run out of arguments at this point.

I Parent/child incestuous relationships (whether consensual or otherwise is irrelevant) are certainly the most damaging in terms of long term psychological health for the child...much evidence supports the fact that incest leaves its victims unable to form healthy sexual relationships suffering from post traumatic stress disorder personality disorders anxiety and depression.

Your argument is moot, in that this is talking about adult children, meaning that they are considered legally capable of making their own decisions.

Legalising incest will make it difficult to prove cases of incestual rape and or ensure maximum sentences are given because perpetrators will likely insist any DNA evidence is the result of consensual incestual sexual activity.

That's not exclusive to incest, and you have yet to provide any actual evidence as to how it actually leads to that.

As for sibling incest the psychological implications there are as far I have ascertained hardly demand that incest be legalised in that they are quite negative much like those of above...

Do you have any examples of cases where incest among adult siblings has been scientifically proven to be psychologically damaging?

but I agree it is less serious.

At least we're getting somewhere.

II Incest leads to interbreeding and that leads to decreasing fitness of the overall population as more and more people inherit recessive alleles that code for deletrious or dysfunctional causes of inheritable illness.

I've already provided proof that this is false.

Which has to lead to increased health care and social security costs.

How?

III Incest (of any kind, even cousins is overstepping the mark quite frankly) is morally unnacceptable to the Primordial Annihilator...a foul betrayal of trust at its worst..but he accepts that his moral view point is entirely subjective and thus irrational HOWEVER it is a common view held by the majority of humanity.

Again, I've given you proof that this is also false, in that it is subjective to each individual culture and society.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I've already provided proof that this is false.

I know that your opinion here isn't a scientific one thus rather than waste my time explaining why it isnt yet again I direct you to the Times article in post 142.



Your opinion is unsubstantiated hyperbole.

 

[McBell]

I know that your opinion here isn't a scientific one thus rather than waste my time explaining why it isnt yet again I direct you to the Times article in post 142.



Your opinion is unsubstantiated hyperbole.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

AM sure the law makers of the country are all responsible citizens besides family oriented and knows what they are doing. Surely lots of experts in the related fields would have been contacted besides no democracy allows any laws that citizens do not want; so outsiders debating on such laws holds not much water.
Personal understanding is that human mind is what drives human action and if the individual is able to transcend the mind all problems are over, however jut by keeping a check on the mind itself is a great advancement and so if one can keep check on his sexual desires at home the same will reflect in society which should lead to a better and healthier society.

Love & rgds

 

[Magic Man]

There are no benefits in incest...who says people are supposed to have freedoms?

Logic and reason along with our Constitution say people are supposed to have freedoms. There doesn't have to be a benefit from something for it to be legal.

Dont make me puke...more liberalist hand wringing...

Still with this nonsense instead of an actual argument?

No it was for your benefit...you are the one who thinks inbreeding is absolutely ok.

Did you miss the word I emphasized? It can lead to problems, but so can many other things that are legal. And I never said I was absolutely OK with it, just that it shouldn't be illegal. I'm not OK with the KKK either, but unless they're actually harming people, they should be able to do what they want.

I do not make a habit of conversing with people like you.

There is nothing you have to say which deserves rational consideration.

You and people like you are partly why this world is a horrendous place to live in...people who believe in revolting ideals.

Yeah, I get it. You don't like talking to rational, reasonable people like me because your views tend to be irrational and unreasonable. That makes sense.

Now are you going to come up with an actual argument, or just continue with the "You're disgusting, and incest is disgusting" nonsense without stating any reasons?

I have already explained why incest damages society repeatedly you are just incapable of understanding.

No, you haven't. The only thing you've explained is that it can increase the likelihood of genetic problems. As has been explained to you, there are specific reasons for that that can occur in unrelated people too. It's not that incest equals high risk of genetic defects. It's not I who is incapable of understanding this.

I dont know anyone who has labelled my religion disgusting other than you...but dont worry I wont forget that...I wont forget either that you equate my faith to moral degeneracy.

Oh, for God's sake, I'm not sure how to make this any clearer to you. I don't label your religion disgusting or morally degenerate. I understand you think more with emotion than with reason, but at least read what I'm saying. I am not the one who thinks there's anything wrong with your religion. The same people who find yours disgusting also tend to find atheism disgusting. This isn't a hard concept. There are some people who believe your religion to be disgusting. I'm not one of them. I understand there's nothing wrong with your beliefs. However, those people could make a case to ban your religion because they find it disgusting, just as you want to ban others' behavior because you find it disgusting.

I am appalled by your opinions...people with your views should be monitored by the state.

Yes, yes, I get it. You think I'm disgusting. Can you please try to make an actual argument here? Simply saying you think I'm disgusting isn't an argument.

 

[Skwim]

Logic and reason along with our Constitution say people are supposed to have freedoms. There doesn't have to be a benefit from something for it to be legal.
Still with this nonsense instead of an actual argument?

Did you miss the word I emphasized? It can lead to problems, but so can many other things that are legal. And I never said I was absolutely OK with it, just that it shouldn't be illegal. I'm not OK with the KKK either, but unless they're actually harming people, they should be able to do what they want.

Yeah, I get it. You don't like talking to rational, reasonable people like me because your views tend to be irrational and unreasonable. That makes sense.

Now are you going to come up with an actual argument, or just continue with the "You're disgusting, and incest is disgusting" nonsense without stating any reasons?

No, you haven't. The only thing you've explained is that it can increase the likelihood of genetic problems. As has been explained to you, there are specific reasons for that that can occur in unrelated people too. It's not that incest equals high risk of genetic defects. It's not I who is incapable of understanding this.

Oh, for God's sake, I'm not sure how to make this any clearer to you. I don't label your religion disgusting or morally degenerate. I understand you think more with emotion than with reason, but at least read what I'm saying. I am not the one who thinks there's anything wrong with your religion. The same people who find yours disgusting also tend to find atheism disgusting. This isn't a hard concept. There are some people who believe your religion to be disgusting. I'm not one of them. I understand there's nothing wrong with your beliefs. However, those people could make a case to ban your religion because they find it disgusting, just as you want to ban others' behavior because you find it disgusting.

Yes, yes, I get it. You think I'm disgusting. Can you please try to make an actual argument here? Simply saying you think I'm disgusting isn't an argument.

A suggestion if I may.             STOP

 

[Magic Man]

Ok...had a few thoughts and thought I would simplify what I am actually saying and think.

I Parent/child incestuous relationships (whether consensual or otherwise is irrelevant) are certainly the most damaging in terms of long term psychological health for the child...much evidence supports the fact that incest leaves its victims unable to form healthy sexual relationships suffering from post traumatic stress disorder personality disorders anxiety and depression.

OK, so far so good.

Legalising incest will make it difficult to prove cases of incestual rape and or ensure maximum sentences are given because perpetrators will likely insist any DNA evidence is the result of consensual incestual sexual activity.

No, you can still make certain things illegal. For instance, as Penguin has pointed out, right now there is a line drawn where some people who are related can legally have a relationship, while others can't. You can legalize some things, while keeping others illegal. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing deal.

As for sibling incest the psychological implications there are as far I have ascertained hardly demand that incest be legalised in that they are quite negative much like those of above...but I agree it is less serious.

Yes, even sibling cases can lead to or be caused by mental problems. That doesn't in and of itself mean they should be illegal.

II Incest leads to interbreeding and that leads to decreasing fitness of the overall population as more and more people inherit recessive alleles that code for deletrious or dysfunctional causes of inheritable illness.
Which has to lead to increased health care and social security costs.

First, let's assume this is all true with no qualifiers at all. With that in mind, do you really think making incest illegal is going to prevent this from happening? Do you think making it illegal is going to help with this at all?

III Incest (of any kind, even cousins is overstepping the mark quite frankly) is morally unnacceptable to the Primordial Annihilator...a foul betrayal of trust at its worst..but he accepts that his moral view point is entirely subjective and thus irrational HOWEVER it is a common view held by the majority of humanity.
That is undeniable, that is why it remains illegal to bone your own dear mother...thank God.

Good, at least you're starting to be able to admit that your thinking is irrational. Now, the next problem is you're trying to say your irrational thoughts are suddenly OK because they're shared by others. An appeal to popularity is a fallacy. Whether or not most people believe something (even assuming that claim here is true) doesn't mean it's true and it certainly doesn't mean something should be banned because of it.

 

[Magic Man]

A suggestion if I may.             STOP

Yes, that would be the smart thing to do.

 

[Comicaze247]

I know that your opinion here isn't a scientific one thus rather than waste my time explaining why it isnt yet again I direct you to the Times article in post 142.

The one where you provide no link to the actual article? Or even the title of the article? Or the date it was written?

Your opinion is unsubstantiated hyperbole.

And actually, it is scientific. I provided a link (which I doubt you followed) showing that it does vary.

And since you seemed to miss the other points I made, and therefore, didn't respond to them, here they are again.

such people are to me utterly polarised to my world view...and as far as I am concerned an enemy of man to be suppressed and silenced at every opportunity.

So . . . you don't think people who disagree with you should be allowed to express their beliefs? Why is that?

I absolutely despise dogooder left wing hand wringing libertine attitudes....

Why?

There are no benefits in incest...

As I explained earlier (not that you were actually listening) should a family have a great amount of beneficial genes and no history of defective genes or harmful recessive genes, if they were to have children through incest, they would most likely have children with the same beneficial genetic make-up. How is that not beneficial to the gene pool? And please, actually think about it and answer rather than spout the same response, claiming there are no benefits.

It doesnt matter...legalising incest will make it more difficult to prosecute child abusers.

You still have yet to provide evidence as to how. All you've given us is the slippery slope fallacy.

I Parent/child incestuous relationships (whether consensual or otherwise is irrelevant) are certainly the most damaging in terms of long term psychological health for the child...much evidence supports the fact that incest leaves its victims unable to form healthy sexual relationships suffering from post traumatic stress disorder personality disorders anxiety and depression.

Your argument is moot, in that this is talking about adult children, meaning that they are considered legally capable of making their own decisions.

Legalising incest will make it difficult to prove cases of incestual rape and or ensure maximum sentences are given because perpetrators will likely insist any DNA evidence is the result of consensual incestual sexual activity.

That's not exclusive to incest, and you have yet to provide any actual evidence as to how it actually leads to that.

As for sibling incest the psychological implications there are as far I have ascertained hardly demand that incest be legalised in that they are quite negative much like those of above...

Do you have any examples of cases where incest among adult siblings has been scientifically proven to be psychologically damaging?

II Incest leads to interbreeding and that leads to decreasing fitness of the overall population as more and more people inherit recessive alleles that code for deletrious or dysfunctional causes of inheritable illness.

I've already provided proof that this is false.

Which has to lead to increased health care and social security costs.

How?

III Incest (of any kind, even cousins is overstepping the mark quite frankly) is morally unnacceptable to the Primordial Annihilator...a foul betrayal of trust at its worst..but he accepts that his moral view point is entirely subjective and thus irrational HOWEVER it is a common view held by the majority of humanity.

Again, I've given you proof that this is also false, in that it is subjective to each individual culture and society.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

...even though the animal kingdom in general avoids incest if possible...because it is unhealthy...it is not conducive to a healthy gene pool...it is not evolutionary viable.

.

Not so ...
Cats
Dogs
sheep goats
horses
cattle
pigs
rabbits
mice
rats

...All have no aversion to incest. In fact it is something that pet owners and farmers strive to prevent, especially those that breed pedigree animals.

It is in fact rare to find any species with such a taboo.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Logic and reason along with our Constitution say people are supposed to have freedoms. There doesn't have to be a benefit from something for it to be legal.

YOUR constitution...not mine

Look...lets just forget it...you are not disgusting...your view on incest is polarised to mine but I would be very churlish to let that cause antipathy between us.
I apologise mball for getting emotive and perhaps going too far.

xxx :rainbow1:

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Not so ...
Cats
Dogs
sheep goats
horses
cattle
pigs
rabbits
mice
rats

...All have no aversion to incest. In fact it is something that pet owners and farmers strive to prevent, especially those that breed pedigree animals.

It is in fact rare to find any species with such a taboo.

What about primates, such as humans?

Pre natal female chimps avoid incestual mating.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

The one where you provide no link to the actual article? Or even the title of the article? Or the date it was written?

I quote the article number....that is sufficent...your denial here is most purile and revealing.