Takfiriyin (terrorists )

[Union]

sure your argument makes sense, but you still haven't answered my previous question, besides how do you know the Quran wasn't altered as well? muslims believe the bible is an altered and distorted version of the original 2 books, if god did not protect his word the first 2 times, why should he protect it the 3rd time?

There are hundred Quranic manuscripts available and preserved as well in public exhibition in all around the world . You can travel trough Istanbul , Topkapi , Sana , Pietersburg , Tashkhand , Cairo etc. to have any scientific research on them . See if you can find any discrepancies in them . Moreover Carbon-14 testing proves them to be the first hand copies from the companions of the Prophet , who heard and wrote the Qur’an from the Prophet directly .

You can collect Qur’an from Shia and Sunni – two major sects in Islam and please try to find out any difference in them . Even you can go further to collect hundreds of the copies of Qur’an from different sects and sub sects in Islam and try to find out the if there any differences and discrepancies . You won’t find a single .

But the scenario for Bible is different . In catholic OT , you will find 46 books whereas the Protestant OT has only 39 books . There is already a big differences of 07 books in the major two sects of Christianity . Orthodox’s’ and others’ are even worse . This is just one example apart from so many facts that proves the distortion of Bible . This is not the right place to discuss this issue .

 

[Anonymousss]

Hi . Please refer to the following link in DIR Quranist section of RF :

Sorry but that post is too much to read but I asked the question to see what others think about this issue, wasn't really looking for an answer.

Many people think of the shahada just as a sentence which turns a person into a muslim. I have come across this so many times already that it is just saddening me how many so called muslims are actually disbelievers. The shahada isn't just a sentence one can say and turn into a muslim. Instead, it has it's own conditions which must be met. If those conditions aren't met this person does not become a muslim. That's the problem nowadays, many people(the so called muslims) ignore this aspect or don't even know anything about it while claiming to be a muslim. And when someone notifies this so called muslim he calls him a takfiri or terrorist. So people call you a takfiri just because you do takfir on a non muslim.

For example, person 1 prays to a cow but he also commits his daily prayers to Allah, person 2 informs this person that it is not allowed in islam and asks him what his reason is to pray to a cow. Person 1 replies i do it out of my own free will and i wont stop commiting this act. With this information person 2 is obliged to make takfir on person 1. If person 2 does not do this and says person 1 is still a muslim he himself becomes a disbeliever by declaring a non muslim as a muslim. And we are obliged then to do takfir on both person 1 and 2 knowing the whole situation.

This is called at-Takfir bit-Tasalsul and i recommend everyone to build up knowledge about islam and not just see it as a tradition which a lot of the older generation do. The most important is to inform yourself with tawheed because every muslim is obliged to know what tawheed is (not just the translation) and practise it.

 

[Anonymousss]

sure no problem, if you have anything to send me you're welcome to, but hopefully not too long books as I have little time, I prefer brief books with concentrated dose, but I'm telling you I already read for them and was even fooled by them just like you

I strongly advise you not to take information from him at all.

 

[Union]

Sorry but that post is too much to read but I asked the question to see what others think about this issue, wasn't really looking for an answer.

Many people think of the shahada just as a sentence which turns a person into a muslim. I have come across this so many times already that it is just saddening me how many so called muslims are actually disbelievers. The shahada isn't just a sentence one can say and turn into a muslim. Instead, it has it's own conditions which must be met. If those conditions aren't met this person does not become a muslim. That's the problem nowadays, many people(the so called muslims) ignore this aspect or don't even know anything about it while claiming to be a muslim. And when someone notifies this so called muslim he calls him a takfiri or terrorist. So people call you a takfiri just because you do takfir on a non muslim.

For example, person 1 prays to a cow but he also commits his daily prayers to Allah, person 2 informs this person that it is not allowed in islam and asks him what his reason is to pray to a cow. Person 1 replies i do it out of my own free will and i wont stop commiting this act. With this information person 2 is obliged to make takfir on person 1. If person 2 does not do this and says person 1 is still a muslim he himself becomes a disbeliever by declaring a non muslim as a muslim. And we are obliged then to do takfir on both person 1 and 2 knowing the whole situation.

This is called at-Takfir bit-Tasalsul and i recommend everyone to build up knowledge about islam and not just see it as a tradition which a lot of the older generation do. The most important is to inform yourself with tawheed because every muslim is obliged to know what tawheed is (not just the translation) and practise it.

O I C !

 

[Union]

I strongly advise you not to take information from him at all.

Why ? What is the problem if he takes information from Asad ? I strongly believe that egcroc has intelligence enough to verify which information is right and which one is wrong . So what is the point of this type of sour instruction or is it an example of Takfir ?

 

[Anonymousss]

O I C !

What? Do you disagree with me? If so feel free to tell me what it is that you disagree on. Atleast it is better than an emoticon which says confused.

 

[Anonymousss]

Why ? What is the problem if he takes information from Asad ? I strongly believe that egcroc has intelligence enough to verify which information is right and which one is wrong . So what is the point of this type of sour instruction or is it an example of Takfir ?

No it is not an example of takfir, why would you even think that? Are you already accusing me of being a takfiri? Anyways, the reason I said this is because I find it hard to trust shia's. I've met some and spoken to them. After all of these conversations it became clear to me that they(the people I have spoken to) were not muslims. Based on this I find it hard to trust shia's. Even if egcroc has the intelligence to verify which information is right and which one is wrong, does not mean he can risk being fooled by the shia. It was just an advice from me due to my experience with shia's. Eventually it is up to him to accept information from assad or not, it is not like I'm prohibiting him or anything.

 

[Union]

What? Do you disagree with me? If so feel free to tell me what it is that you disagree on. Atleast it is better than an emoticon which says confused.

How the person 1 still a Muslim or Muslim at all, if s/he prays to cow , doesn't matter s/he prays 5 or 50 times a day to ALLAH ?

 

[Union]

No it is not an example of takfir, why would you even think that? Are you already accusing me of being a takfiri? Anyways, the reason I said this is because I find it hard to trust shia's. I've met some and spoken to them. After all of these conversations it became clear to me that they(the people I have spoken to) were not muslims. Based on this I find it hard to trust shia's. Even if egcroc has the intelligence to verify which information is right and which one is wrong, does not mean he can risk being fooled by the shia. It was just an advice from me due to my experience with shia's. Eventually it is up to him to accept information from assad or not, it is not like I'm prohibiting him or anything.

Quite strange , you labeled some of Shia whom you met as Non-Muslim and saying that it is not Takfir ? Okay , leave it , tell me , which sect you are from or what school of thought you follow ? What did you hear from those Shia that led you to label them non-Muslim ? Thanks .

 

[Anonymousss]

How the person 1 still a Muslim if s/he prays to cow , doesn't matter s/he prays 5 or 50 times a day to ALLAH ?

You are right, person 1 is not a muslim didn't i make that clear? But I apologize for not making this clear enough. I should have written person 1 still prays to Allah and claims that he is a muslim. This fits for the beginning of my example. If you relate to another part of it, can you give me the exact part you mean?

 

[Anonymousss]

Quite strange , you labeled some of Shia whom you met as Non-Muslim and saying that it is not Takfir ? Okay , leave it , tell me , which sect you are from or what school of thought you follow ? What did you hear from those Shia that led you to label them non-Muslim ? Thanks .

I think you are misunderstanding me. I have done(specific) takfir on the shia's that I have spoken to. What I meant with "that is not takfir" is that I didnt do(specific) takfir on assad(which is a shia too). And we were talking about the guy named assad in this topic. Hope you understand me now.

Those shia that I have spoken to made dua to imam Ali (RA) and everyone with the necessary knowledge of islam should know that this is a form of shirk akbar. This particular sin makes you leave islam. There is more but this information is enough.

 

[Union]

Dear brother/sister (tell me what u r ) , takfir takes place between two Muslims . When a person prays cow s/he is in no way a Muslim . If someone has a problem with doctrine of Oneness of GOD , it nullifies him/her from the list of Muslim at the very first place .

 

[Anonymousss]

Dear brother/sister (tell me what u r ) , takfir takes place between two Muslims . When a person prays cow s/he is in no way a Muslim . If someone has a problem with doctrine of Oneness of GOD , it nullifies him/her from the list of Muslim at the very first place .

I think you misunderstand the meaning of takfir. Can you give me the meaning of takfir, if you want?

By the way I am of male gender.

 

[Union]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I have done(specific) takfir on the shia's that I have spoken to. What I meant with "that is not takfir" is that I didnt do(specific) takfir on assad(which is a shia too). And we were talking about the guy named assad in this topic. Hope you understand me now.

Those shia that I have spoken to made dua to imam Ali (RA) and everyone with the necessary knowledge of islam should know that this is a form of shirk akbar. This particular sin makes you leave islam. There is more but this information is enough.

I do agree with you in this case , if, Ya ALLAH Madad = Ya ali madad , then Shia makes ALLAH=ali .

 

[Union]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of takfir. Can you give me the meaning of takfir, if you want?
By the way I am of male gender.

Thats fine bro , I understand you . Thanks . You elaboration on your previous unclear posts put 2 and 2 in 4 .

 

[egcroc]

I strongly advise you not to take information from him at all.

it really wouldn't hurt since I have left islam and abrahamic religions altogether, would it make a differenence to read about some sect?!! besides right now I've started reading about other religions "mostly dharmic religions and new religions"... currently I'm immersed with my resaearch on hinduism, so far it's all just myths that do not make any more sense to me than the abrahamic ones, but I'm still fascinated by the beautiful heart-warming story of the Hindu god Krishna (very similar to some other cute young man we had in the Middle east just 2000 years ago)... after I'm finished reading on Hinduism I'm planning to move on to Unitarian Universalism, and then maybe Buddhism and/or New Age and/or Pantheism, So Shi'ism really isn't on top of my list by now

:camp:
Peace,

 

[Assad91]

No it is not an example of takfir, why would you even think that? Are you already accusing me of being a takfiri? Anyways, the reason I said this is because I find it hard to trust shia's. I've met some and spoken to them. After all of these conversations it became clear to me that they(the people I have spoken to) were not muslims. Based on this I find it hard to trust shia's. Even if egcroc has the intelligence to verify which information is right and which one is wrong, does not mean he can risk being fooled by the shia. It was just an advice from me due to my experience with shia's. Eventually it is up to him to accept information from assad or not, it is not like I'm prohibiting him or anything.

Takfiri nonsense.

 

[Union]

it really wouldn't hurt since I have left islam and abrahamic religions altogether, would it make a differenence to read about some sect?!! besides right now I've started reading about other religions "mostly dharmic religions and new religions"... currently I'm immersed with my resaearch on hinduism, so far it's all just myths that do not make any more sense to me than the abrahamic ones, but I'm still fascinated by the beautiful heart-warming story of the Hindu god Krishna (very similar to some other cute young man we had in the Middle east just 2000 years ago)... after I'm finished reading on Hinduism I'm planning to move on to Unitarian Universalism, and then maybe Buddhism and/or New Age and/or Pantheism, So Shi'ism really isn't on top of my list by now

:camp:
Peace,

Wow , man , you are a rolling stone . Did you try Quran-only Islam before ? If you did , can you share with us your feelings , understanding , issues and objections about it . Don't you want to open a new thread to discuss it in Quranist DIR so that we can review everything again afresh . Please give it a try once more - we will be having InshALLAH friendly , warmly and fruitful discussion .
Thanks my friend egcroc . Have a nice day .

 

[egcroc]

Wow , man , you are a rolling stone . Did you try Quran-only Islam before ? If you did , can you share with us your feelings , understanding , issues and objections about it . Don't you want to open a new thread to discuss it in Quranist DIR so that we can review everything again afresh . Please give it a try once more - we will be having InshALLAH friendly , warmly and fruitful discussion .
Thanks my friend egcroc . Have a nice day .

Actually I just skipped the Quranist phase, it really doesn't make sense to me to believe in a book without knowing all about its origin, its author and the environment and circumstances in which it was written, sure the Sunnah and Sirah are messed up, but they remain the best historical record we have on this time period...

Moreover as I said before, I did not find the quran to be any more pleasant than these books, you got many verses that promote hatred and violence, creation stories that do not make any more sense than the genesis (myabe because they're quite the same), but the most disturbing thing I found in the Quran is the constant threat of eternal punishment and burning in Hell, you find verses speaking about hell, punishment, torture..etc. in almost every chapter and mybe I'm not exaggerating if I say every page or few pages, some of them are quite graphic... why is that? and it's not only for pagans or atheists, it's also for jews and christians who believe in him but they just happened to be born in the wrong family and taught to worship him the wrong way, add to that also muslims who believe in god and mohamed but were born in the wrong sect... you know there's a verse that says the majority of mankind will never believe and god shall send them all to hell, does this sound fair to you?!!!

Mohamed says that muslims will be divided into 73 sects all of them are going to hell except one, so an average man's chance to go to heaven is already less than 20% if he's a muslim, divide that by 73 and you got a probablity of approximately 1:300 to go to heaven, add to that another hadith about god telling adam on judgement day to bring forth 999 out of each thousand of his offspring to go to hell and you'll find out we're already screwed up big time...:sad4:

sorry my friend, I just couldn't live with that, religion is supposed to be about spirituality, inner as well as external peace and feeling connected to a great loving power, not being a subordinate feeling constantly scared and threatened form unimaginable brutal punishment...

:camp:
Peace,

 

[Union]

Actually I just skipped the Quranist phase, it really doesn't make sense to me to believe in a book without knowing all about its origin, its author and the environment and circumstances in which it was written, sure the Sunnah and Sirah are messed up, but they remain the best historical record we have on this time period...

Moreover as I said before, I did not find the quran to be any more pleasant than these books, you got many verses that promote hatred and violence, creation stories that do not make any more sense than the genesis (myabe because they're quite the same), but the most disturbing thing I found in the Quran is the constant threat of eternal punishment and burning in Hell, you find verses speaking about hell, punishment, torture..etc. in almost every chapter and mybe I'm not exaggerating if I say every page or few pages, some of them are quite graphic... why is that? and it's not only for pagans or atheists, it's also for jews and christians who believe in him but they just happened to be born in the wrong family and taught to worship him the wrong way, add to that also muslims who believe in god and mohamed but were born in the wrong sect... you know there's a verse that says the majority of mankind will never believe and god shall send them all to hell, does this sound fair to you?!!!

Mohamed says that muslims will be divided into 73 sects all of them are going to hell except one, so an average man's chance to go to heaven is already less than 20% if he's a muslim, divide that by 73 and you got a probablity of approximately 1:300 to go to heaven, add to that another hadith about god telling adam on judgement day to bring forth 999 out of each thousand of his offspring to go to hell and you'll find out we're already screwed up big time...:sad4:

sorry my friend, I just couldn't live with that, religion is supposed to be about spirituality, inner as well as external peace and feeling connected to a great loving power, not being a subordinate feeling constantly scared and threatened form unimaginable brutal punishment...

:camp:
Peace,

Hi dear egcroc . I really thank you for touching few issues that you were really bothered by Quranist Islam . It would be even better if you open a new thread and put them more specifically , verse by verse, so that we can hit the right point .

I can't advocate what bothered you from Hadith and Sunnah as I totally discard them , but with Qur'an - as you have asked about the origin of it which I have already replied you earlier , its scientific and archaeological values and the researches done by the scientist . Hence instead of looking into it from Hadith and Sirah - which can never be accepted by Non-Muslim in afraid of bias in favor of Qur'an , you can study it through science and archaeology by the neutral people .

Secondly , though it is important to know which specific verse about the punishment of hell causes your vex , in general as a supreme authority GOD , the Almighty has the right to reward and to punish HIS servants as per their deeds . Even in the earthly life when a Government of a State found its citizen to do crime , it punishes them to the degree of his crime which could also be the sentence to death .

To establish a balance society , to make a balance human - you should have the fear of punishment . That is quite logical . Otherwise the black giant of crime would always rule us and the whole world would turn to hell , before we will enter in hell