Taking a knee

[QuestioningMind]

Those are your opinions, no matter how incorrect.

It's a constitutional right inasmuch as the employer permits it. I think "constitutional right" is thrown around a little too fast and loose, when people don't really have any idea what it is and is not: A Chill Around the Water Cooler: First Amendment in the Workplace

I suspect that true patriots are all of the opinion that even if they don't agree with someone else's opinion, that they still support their right to express it.

"It's a constitutional right inasmuch as the employer permits it."

And apparently the employers are willing to permit it. In fact, many have now come out in support of the players.

 

[Falvlun]

You're just not getting my point. You would understand my point if you actually read what I said and why. You want me to see it your way, I want you to see it my way, neither of which is going to happen. And I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Your point was contradictory (stating that all instances of X were "wrong" and then stating that some instances of X were ok.)

Your point was uninformed. (Stating that those kneeling don't put their money where their mouth is, when a Google search shows this to be incorrect.)

And your point was unreasonable. (On multiple points, including the idea that dontating a million dollars isn't sufficiently using one's resources to fix a problem, that police brutality isn't something you protest, it's something you fix (still scratching my head on that one))

 

[Jainarayan]

Your point was contradictory (stating that all instances of X were "wrong" and then stating that some instances of X were ok.)

Your point was uninformed. (Stating that those kneeling don't put their money where their mouth is, when a Google search shows this to be incorrect.)

And your point was unreasonable. (On multiple points, including the idea that dontating a million dollars isn't sufficiently using one's resources to fix a problem, that police brutality isn't something you protest, it's something you fix (still scratching my head on that one))

OK.

 

[Jainarayan]

I suspect that true patriots are all of the opinion that even if they don't agree with someone else's opinion, that they still support their right to express it.

Of course they have a right to express it. I just don't agree with it. And I said why... too many times.

 

[Falvlun]

Intially, Kaepernick sat during the anthem in protest. So why did he switch to kneeling?

Nate Boyer, a green beret, wrote this open letter to him. The last couple paragraphs demonstrate an open-mind and open-heart that we should all strive for.

So Kaepernick invites Boyer to talk about this. In the interview, Boyer recalls:
"We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammates," Boyer says. "Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

Respect. They chose kneeling because of the inherent respect it demonstrates.

I just want ya'll to think about this when you go on about this protest disrespecting our flag and those who served. A green beret was willing to take the time to listen to Kaepernick and consider his protest. And Kaepernick was willing to change his method to better show respect.

For Kaepernick, it wasn't ever about disrespecting our country or our servicemen, and he wanted to make that clear:
"“I realize that men and women of the military go out and sacrifice their lives and put themselves in harm’s way for my freedom of speech, and my freedoms in this country, and my freedom to take a seat or take a knee,” Kaepernick said after the game. “So I have the utmost respect for them, and I think what I did was taken out of context and spun a different way.” source

 

[Falvlun]

"You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative."

"You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue."

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

Here are a few excerpts from A Letter From a Birmingham Jail. I'm afraid I chose too many, but it was hard not to include more, and I urge you all to read it. This letter outlines MLK's argument against those who felt that the protests were too disruptive, or counter productive, or too disrespectful of the rule of law. Protests are fine, his erstwhile supporters said, but not right now, or not in this way. Sounds familiar and so it goes.

 

[averageJOE]

I just want to reiterate WHY these players are kneeling and/or linking arms; racial injustice and violence towards minorities at the hands of police.

Sometimes I think the message is getting lost. Even among some of the players, coaches, and owners.

 

[chickenranch]

Is this disrespecting the flag, the anthem, the military? Is it unpatriotic? Or do you support this protest?

I don't think it's disrespectful or unpatriotic.

Disrespectful would be doing something like turning your back, making an obviously rude gesture (middle finger, spitting), or something like that, IMO. I know a couple of veterans very well - high ranking Green Berets - who have said they also perceive no disrespect.

I also don't think it's disrespectful to fans. It doesn't change their experience or take any more time, or devalue their dollar. Entertainers are individuals, not scripted automatons.

NFL players as employees would need to deal with their employers - who seem to obviously support their players in this case. I saw some chatter about players' contracts and rules - I think the only rule regarding players and the anthem is that they are all supposed to be on the field. It doesn't say what they are supposed to be doing. (http://www.11alive.com/.../verify-are-nfl.../478347794)

NFL players as entertainers are using their most public venue to make a quiet statement about something important to them. I've got white privilege all over me. Who am I to say that their complaint is invalid? I can't, because it is valid.

So to be able to make their point, they need to be able to do it in a public venue with an audience.

If a protest or symbolic act doesn't get attention and get people talking, it's ineffective. It might have stayed much smaller and we wouldn't even be talking about it right now, but once the president decided to say they should be fired, call them sons of b*****s, etc - the focus had to shift from their original purpose and toward teams unifying to show support for their teammates' right to peacefully and respectfully protest. I don't think anyone initially wanted to make this about a politician or partisanship. It's big and we're all talking about an important thing, but the wrong thing.

We should be talking about how safely and effectively diffuse racial tension between law enforcement and citizens. Is it training for law enforcement? Do they need more training in h2h tactics and non-deadly force? Better psychological screening to find the most-likely-to-snap folks? I think the vast majority of law enforcement agents are good guys - but there are some bad ones, just like everywhere.

Is there anything that citizens, all of us, can do in situations when they start going off the rails to ease tension? It's very easy to Monday morning quarterback situations we've seen on TV - "I would never do that", "he should have done this", etc - but in a fast-moving, high-stress confrontation when the wrong decision could mean that someone dies, things are moving too fast and under too much stress, I would think, to make good decisions. I don't know what the answer is, but the question definitely needs attention!

 

[Stevicus]

La. high school to punish athletes for protesting anthem

The LHSAA (Louisiana High School Athletic Association) allows school principals to make decisions regarding student participation in the National Anthem while competing in athletic contests and games. Parkway High School requires student athletes to stand in a respectful manner throughout the National Anthem during any sporting event in which their team is participating. Failure to comply will result in loss of playing time and/or participation as directed by the head coach and principal. Continued failure to comply will result in removal from the team. Parkway High School is continued to creating a positive environment for sporting events that is free of disruption to the athletic contest or game."

 

[tytlyf]

I just want to reiterate WHY these players are kneeling and/or linking arms; racial injustice and violence towards minorities at the hands of police.

Sometimes I think the message is getting lost. Even among some of the players, coaches, and owners.

The message is being twisted and spun. I watch Fox and they're insinuating that these football players are protesting America and the military. Not a single word about the above. That's propaganda.

 

[Maponos]

Vets swore to protect our rights and freedoms, so why would they be upset to see people practicing those rights and freedoms? What's truly disgraceful is worshiping a flag and a song while disregarding what the flag and song actually represent and stand for.

Giving your life to only be disrespected tends to not go over rather well.

That we as a country firstly associate our flag with our military says a lot about us as a nation. As does our comfortable assumption that the American military has done anything for our our rights in the past 72 years, rather than fill some indifferent fatcat's pockets.

Is the military not the arm of the country? The flag is the symbol of the country, so it typically goes without saying the we associate the flag with the military. If we did not, then it would be nonsensical for militaries throughout history to raise a flag in victory or to have bannermen, no?

Veterans defend Kaepernick on social media - CNN

>CNN

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Is the military not the arm of the country? The flag is the symbol of the country, so it typically goes without saying the we associate the flag with the military. If we did not, then it would be nonsensical for militaries throughout history to raise a flag in victory or to have bannermen, no?

The military is an arm of the country. Not the arm. The flag no more represents the military than it does the judicial branch or other sections of government. And the military don't carry the flag because it represents the military, it's because the flag represents the country by which the military is a part of. There is a great deal more to this country than its military and anything done with the flag does not automatically translate to talking about the military, much less a cheap emotional call to 'butwhataboutthetroops'ism.

 

[Father Heathen]

Giving your life to only be disrespected tends to not go over rather well.

Except that they're not being disrespected. The protest has nothing to do with them (except for the many who have joined the protesters in taking a knee.) What you speak of is just another arbitrary aspect of this strange flag idolatry. It's not about the flag itself, but rather what it's supposed to stand for. If we don't actually abide and uphold what the flag represents (freedom, rights, equality, justice), then it's nothing but a piece of cloth.

 

[Maponos]

The military is an arm of the country. Not the arm. The flag no more represents the military than it does the judicial branch or other sections of government. And the military don't carry the flag because it represents the military, it's because the flag represents the country by which the military is a part of. There is a great deal more to this country than its military and anything done with the flag does not automatically translate to talking about the military, much less a cheap emotional call to 'butwhataboutthetroops'ism.

Therefore, the flag is associated with the military. Thank you for proving my point.

Except that they're not being disrespected. The protest has nothing to do with them (except for the many who have joined the protesters in taking a knee.) What you speak of is just another arbitrary aspect of this strange flag idolatry. It's not about the flag itself, but rather what it's supposed to stand for. If we don't actually abide and uphold what the flag represents (freedom, rights, equality, justice), then it's nothing but a piece of cloth.

They are indeed. Ask the veterans who do feel they are being disrespected.

I need to clear this up though, taking a knee during the pledge doesn't have anything to do with troops until it does...? That's awfully convenient logic.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ask the veterans who do feel they are being disrespected.

Then it's sad that we have to tell vets of all people to 'man up'.

 

[averageJOE]

It's not about the flag itself, but rather what it's supposed to stand for. If we don't actually abide and uphold what the flag represents (freedom, rights, equality, justice), then it's nothing but a piece of cloth.

^^^^This!

The flag and anthem are supposed to symbolize freedom. "Land of the free"

However, this country is moving more and more into a police state where citizens unknowingly and/or willingly give up their rights during police interactions. More to the point, police expect and sometimes even demand that one give up their rights.

Again, anyone want to see how "free" they really are? Drive through a DUI checkpoint and exercise all your rights, and see what happens.

 

[averageJOE]

Ask the veterans who do feel they are being disrespected.

Why not ask veterans who DON'T feel disrespected?

 

[esmith]

One question
Why was there no uproar by the players in the NFL and the press over the Tim Tebow controversy. Just asking not taking sides. (at least not here)

 

[Falvlun]

One question
Why was there no uproar by the players in the NFL and the press over the Tim Tebow controversy. Just asking not taking sides. (at least not here)

Maybe because the President didn't call him a "son of a *****" and call for him to be fired.

 

[esmith]

Maybe because the President didn't call him a "son of a *****" and call for him to be fired.

I see, they are only protesting the President. Seems like there is a lot of that going on in certain circles.