Tantric Vaishnavism?

[StarryNightshade]

I've been reflecting a lot about my own spiritual life lately, and coupled with all of the heavy reading I've been doing for class, this question came to mind:

Is there such a thing as Tantric Vaishnavism?

Not tantric as in a left hand path (vamachra), but also not completely falling within Vaishnava orthodoxy?

I've often wondered if I somehow fall within a tantric worldview. As I:

- Don't have such a restrictive view on sex (as in I don't see non-procreative sex within the context of long term commitment as "illicit")

- View scriptures more philosophically, mystically, and esoterically; instead of always straight up literal.

- Place little emphasis on most Puranas, to the point where most of them are not very important in my practice. Or I just flat out reject some of them (like the Garuda Purana). I also reject the Manu Smriti.

- I place a lot more emphasis on Shakti (Sri Lakshmi) than an average Vaishnava. More so than what is considered normative for Vadakalai or even Gaudiyas.

- Unless one is a priest or acharya, then I firmly believe that ones intentions or faith in doing rituals is technically more important than "doing them right". As in I don't think God will strike the average householder down if they mispronounce a few Sanskrit words or don't use the exact kind of materials as prescribed in scriptures.

Yet, with that said:

- I still believe vegetarianism is spiritually beneficial; especially for seekers and novices.

- The Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, and Lakshmi Tantra are highly important to me.

- Having a guru is a way to gain authentic (ie: non-watered down) knowledge.

- A mixture of the yogas (Karma, Bhakti, and Jnana) are ways to eventually reach saranagati.

- People still have their duties to perform, but personal commitment, temperament, and ability vary.

 

[Terese]

Why do you think the Puranas are unimportant?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Why do you think the Puranas are unimportant?

Not in general, but for me, I think that scriptures like the Gita, Upanishads, and commentaries from acharyas like Ramanuja are personally more important. Might as well include devotional poetry as well.

I can read Puranas and extract meaning from them, but I don't really go much beyond that. I realize that I'm pretty much a minority in this regard, but it is what it is.

 

[Jainarayan]

I have many of these same thoughts and questions. I'm looking forward to hearing answers from our more knowledgeable members too.

I certainly don't view the Puranas as literal history, but as rather colorful metaphorical morality and educational tales.

I've gotten into many a verbal fisticuffs over pronunciation of mantras, and how people have said they are worthless if not pronounced perfectly. Well, if that were the case our temple pujas are worthless and we may as well close the sanctum doors and call it a day. What I mean is that the priests blow through them so fast...

Doing pujas and rituals, at least for the individual, remember Bhagavad Gita 9.26. And then there's the story from Mahābhārata where Krishna explains to Arjuna what antharyagam puja is (internal puja). It's also called manasika puja http://sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=1016

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, when the priest is hurriedly doing his pūjā, we are doing our own 'antarayāgam pūjā'. His pūjā is for him. Our pūjā is for us. I won't worry about his pūjā. We are not in the same world, if one gets what I mean.

 

[4M17]

Once I've heard from a devotee that the in the last prayers done while doing puja/ritual/etc, the priest along with all participants ask for forgiveness for any offense like pronunciation mistake, or other kinda offenses & God forgives these little things..and if this is a procedure to follow in all puja then I don't it's a big issue if unconsciously we've wrongly pronounced something...but of course these should be done consciously and making it a habit..
Can anyone conversant give some more detail plz?

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Is there such a thing as Tantric Vaishnavism?

Yes, it is even aupaniṣadika (~ eulogised in the upaniṣads), though it (philosophy & theology) is certainly not like what you've imagined it to be. Your signature line is interesting:

I am His absolute and unique Shakti, the eternal Goddess, performing all of His functions and sharing all of His states of existence.

If one understands this single verse fully and properly, one will never continue in the cycle of rebirths.

श्रीर्यत्कटाक्षबलवत्यजितन्नमामि ।

 

[StarryNightshade]

Yes, it is even aupaniṣadika (~ eulogised in the upaniṣads), though it (philosophy & theology) is certainly not like what you've imagined it to be.

What would it look like then? I'm genuinely curious.

Your signature line is interesting:

If one understands this single verse fully and properly, one will never continue in the cycle of rebirths.

श्रीर्यत्कटाक्षबलवत्यजितन्नमामि ।

Well, that's the goal, right?

But for the record, I don't claim to be a scholar. I know that a lot of what I believe tends to fall outside if what is usually seen as "Vaishnava". I just practice what I feel is right for me.

 

[Shrew]

There is the Vaishnava-Sahajiya tradition, when I got it right they believe that every man is Krishna and every woman is Radha.
There is also the Pancarata tradition which, I believe, is centered around Lakshmi.
Lakshmi Tantra

 

[StarryNightshade]

There is also the Pancarata tradition which, I believe, is centered around Lakshmi.
Lakshmi Tantra

That's what I practice. Just curious to see if there were other traditions.

 

[DeviChaaya]

As @Shrew has mentioned there is the Sahajiya tradition. It tends to be villufied by ISKCON. The late Shri Jagadguru Kripalu Maharaj ji was/is a Sahajiya guru I believe.

 

[Jainarayan]

Can anyone conversant give some more detail plz?

The prayer goes:

yadakshara padabhrashtam
mātra hīnantu yad bhavet
tat sarvam kshyamyatām deva
nārāyana namostute
visarga bindu mātrāni
pada pādāksharāni cha
nyūnāni chātirikdhāni
kshamasva paramēshvara
hari oṁ tat sat

I don't know the word for word translation from Sanskrit, but this is what I've seen:

Whenever any letters, words, and metre are corrupted, please forgive all those,
O Lord Narayana. I pay my obeisances to thee, Please forgive me for the error
in visarga, bindu, and their metres including words and
composite words. Please forgive the grammatical rules as well.

Of course if you pronounce this wrong, how do you ask for forgiveness for pronouncing a forgiveness prayer wrong? (that's just a sort of tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question).

 

[Jainarayan]

We are not in the same world, if one gets what I mean.

Indeed... as I've learned, the priest is doing the puja for the deity, not for us. He does the puja whether anyone is present or not. I suppose that's not unlike our own private home puja. If family is there or not, we do it for the deity.

 

[4M17]

The prayer goes:

yadakshara padabhrashtam
mātra hīnantu yad bhavet
tat sarvam kshyamyatām deva
nārāyana namostute
visarga bindu mātrāni
pada pādāksharāni cha
nyūnāni chātirikdhāni
kshamasva paramēshvara
hari oṁ tat sat

I don't know the word for word translation from Sanskrit, but this is what I've seen:

Whenever any letters, words, and metre are corrupted, please forgive all those,
O Lord Narayana. I pay my obeisances to thee, Please forgive me for the error
in visarga, bindu, and their metres including words and
composite words. Please forgive the grammatical rules as well.

Of course if you pronounce this wrong, how do you ask for forgiveness for pronouncing a forgiveness prayer wrong? (that's just a sort of tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question).

Wow thts cool its very nice thank you

 

[Aupmanyav]

I suppose that's not unlike our own private home puja. If family is there or not, we do it for the deity.

Even when a family worships, every one is doing his/her own puja. My wife may be asking for a promotion for my son, I may be asking for my culture to become strong and vibrant. That is 'Antarayagam' (what exactly we are hoping for), and each one is different.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Whenever any letters, words, and metre are corrupted, please forgive all those,
O Lord Narayana. I pay my obeisances to thee, Please forgive me for the error
in visarga, bindu, and their metres including words and
composite words. Please forgive the grammatical rules as well.

This reminds me of a nice story. Once Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was in South India, in the temple of Ranganaath. When He went to see the diety, there was a Brahmin sitting there. Now, due to some circumstance, that Brahmin was illiterate, and he was holding and Bhagavad Gita in his hand. However, because he was illiterate, he was reading the Gita upside down. All the people there were laughing at him, joking "Oh how can an illiterate read the Gita?". However, despite this, the Brahmin was full on crying, tears flowing down his body and covering the Gita as well. Lord Chaitanya was amazed at this, so he approached the Brahmin. "Oh dear Brahmin" He said "What in the Gita is making you cry so profusely?". To this, the Brahmin replied "O Sannayasi, I am merely pretending to read the Gita. I am actually illiterate, but my Gurudev has ordered me to read the Gita regularly, so I don't want to disobey my Gurudev's order, that is why I am making a show of reading it".

"But why are you crying", Lord Chaitanya asked.

The Brahmin replied, "Whenever I sit down to read the Gita, I always think of Krsna as the charioteer giving instructions to His dear friend Arjuna. Even though Krsna is God, still He has accepted a submissive role of a charioteer in order. How merciful He is, that He has accepted such a menial role being bound by love for His friend Arjuna? When I think of this, I can't help but cry"

Lord Chaitanya then immediately embraced him. "You have truly understood the meaning of the Gita" He said.


Moral of the story: The rules of formal rituals and practices are always secondary to the intent that is in your heart. Krsna will ultimately judge that intent, not the outward practices. The outward practices are only an expression of the sentiments that are within.

 

[Jainarayan]

It reminds me also of the story when Adi Shankaracharya was in Varanasi and saw an old man teaching grammar to some students. He asked the old man what good would grammar lessons do when it was time to leave the body. He said "bhaja Govindam, bhaja Govindam!" and composed Moha Mudgara. It shows that rules take a back seat to devotion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaja_Govindam#Legend

 

[StarryNightshade]

Which brings me to a follow up question: are there any groups which are affiliated with Vaishnava-Sahajiya? I've contacted an ashram here in the US affiliated with JKP.

 

[निताइ dasa]

In my humble opinion, Jagatguru Kripaluji Maharaj is not a Sahajiya. Sahajiyas see themselves as Radha and Krsna, so they try and imitate the pastimes like rasa etc within this world, where the men are Krsna and the women are Radha. So for them, the pastimes are like a metaphor. JKP never did this, as far as I am aware. He kept a firm distinction between the material world and the spiritual world. His philosophy is actually a combination of Gaudiya and also little bit of Ramanandi influence. Amazingly, everything he speaks is extremely compatible with Gaudiya litreture haaha.

You will not find many Sahajiya groups except those within Vrndavana and also Bengal.

 

[StarryNightshade]

In my humble opinion, Jagatguru Kripaluji Maharaj is not a Sahajiya. Sahajiyas see themselves as Radha and Krsna, so they try and imitate the pastimes like rasa etc within this world, where the men are Krsna and the women are Radha. So for them, the pastimes are like a metaphor. JKP never did this, as far as I am aware. He kept a firm distinction between the material world and the spiritual world. His philosophy is actually a combination of Gaudiya and also little bit of Ramanandi influence. Amazingly, everything he speaks is extremely compatible with Gaudiya litreture haaha.

You will not find many Sahajiya groups except those within Vrndavana and also Bengal.

I got that feeling too when I checked their site. Still, it doesn't hurt to ask and learn new things.