Taqiya vs martirdom: two different approaches

[Smart_Guy]

Guys, not sure, but I think Google translate has a mistake for the meaning of martyrdom. I think it should be dying for a belief, not getting killed for a belief. Unless they refer to specific religious meaning of the word? In Islam, it is believed that dying not just in a war, but also in drowning and burning, are considered martyrdom. In Islam also there is no variation of it for killing someone else.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[use_your_brain]

Hey, thanks for the heads up. I'll delete my post

Although I did not mean worldly goals, I meant those concerning beliefs. An unclear statement is still a mistake tho



Actually, there are some. Here is one of them:

Quran 16:106 (translation):
Whoever disbelieves in God after his belief; those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from God, and for them is a great punishment, except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith.

That verse implies that it is allowed to renounce religion if forced to, as long as the heart still believes in it.

You can refer to the Arabic text, maybe you have another interpretation for it. There are different interpretations in Islam for the Quran for such verses. I had to rearrange the order of phrase since in the original text it was put in an unclear order for the exception phrase. It is highly suggested to refer to the original text if you know Arabic.

That verse doesn't imply the permission of any kind of lying except in the condition: "except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith."
Do the Taqiya believers always under the condition where they are forced to renounce the religion ?

 

[Smart_Guy]

That verse doesn't imply the permission of any kind of lying except in the condition: "except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith."

Yes, except for that. This means it is allowed under that case.

The definition of Taqiyyah in Islam is lying under life threatening cases. Lying is general is forbidden, I'm not saying it is. There are no verses allowing all kinds of lying in general.

What is the definition of Taqiyyah in your view? Perhaps answering this could clear things up.

Do the Taqiya believers always under the condition where they are forced to renounce the religion ?

Could you please paraphrase (rephrase) the question?

 

[use_your_brain]

Yes, except for that. This means it is allowed under that case.

The definition of Taqiyyah in Islam is lying under life threatening cases. Lying is general is forbidden, I'm not saying it is. There are no verses allowing all kinds of lying in general.

What is the definition of Taqiyyah in your view? Perhaps answering this could clear things up.



Could you please paraphrase (rephrase) the question?

My definition of Taqiya is lying all the times without being forced by anyone. They constantly do it in media. Anyone able to force someone on the media/orline/internet to renounce their faiths?

 

[Smart_Guy]

My definition of Taqiya is lying all the times without being forced by anyone. They constantly do it in media. Anyone able to force someone on the media/orline/internet to renounce their faiths?

Aha!

That would be straight forward lying in general. It is forbidden in Islam. The definition you provided could maybe work with Shiaa only as I heard, but I cannot say that for sure or exactly. Perhaps one of them could comment on it.

 

[cambridge79]

Actually I was raised Christian, - and in my studies - was told Christians can deny in danger situations, - because God knows it is a temporary false statement that you don't actually mean = He knows the heart.

Peter denies Christ - and does just fine.

At the cross the men run and hide so as not to be recognized as followers, and thus crucified themselves.

*

i was raised christian too, and actually i remember there was a huge praise of the courage of martirs and i've never been told what you say, probably because in my country christians are not in danger so they're not trained on what to do in such situations.
What peter did was always narrated to me as an act of weakness, to show his human weakness opposed to the godly perfection of jesus going trough martirdom, not as an example of what to do in case someone is coming after you for your faith.

 

[LuisDantas]

so what are your toughts about martirdom and taqiya?

Both are to be avoided. I see both as abuse of the concept of the divine and morally questionable.

Martyrdom, however, tends to spontaneously contain its own damage.

 

[cambridge79]

Taqiya has nothing to do with Islam, it is practiced by Shia/Shiites.

well i think i inadvertently started a more interesting talk that i would have imagined on the subject of Taqiya.
So what is your view on Taqiya? You say there's no Taqiya in Islam, what should a good muslim do in the case someone is threatening him for his faith, according to your view of islam?
Would he die in the name of allah? would he fight back in the name of his god? would he be a coward and a sinner if using Taqiya?

 

[DawudTalut]

Taqiyya is not allowed in Islam. I don't know in Ahmadia Religion, because it is practiced in Shiah.

Holy Quran
[3:170] Think not of those, who have been slain in the cause of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living, in the presence of their Lord, and are granted gifts from Him,
http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=474&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2


""Third allegation: That there is a philosophy in Islam called taqiyya that permits Muslims to lie if necessary for the good of the faith! Nothing could be farther from the truth.""
https://www.alislam.org/library/articles/Three-Allegations-Against-Islam-Refuted.pdf

The link tell
""The Holy Quran stresses the need for truth so repeatedly and so forcefully and we see this in the life of the Holy Prophet so brilliantly illustrated that there can be no doubt in any one’s mind that the so-called philosophy of taqiyya or anything like it could be taught by Islam, the Holy Quran or the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sa).""

=========

Post # 2 @ http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/al-taqiyya.180658/#post-4461564

 

[use_your_brain]

well i think i inadvertently started a more interesting talk that i would have imagined on the subject of Taqiya.
So what is your view on Taqiya? You say there's no Taqiya in Islam, what should a good muslim do in the case someone is threatening him for his faith, according to your view of islam?
Would he die in the name of allah? would he fight back in the name of his god? would he be a coward and a sinner if using Taqiya?

Prophet said: do not associate any one thing with God, although they kill or burn you.

 

[cambridge79]

Prophet said: do not associate any one thing with God, although they kill or burn you.

that doesn't really answer what i've asked, can i have a more direct answer, thanks

 

[use_your_brain]

that doesn't really answer what i've asked, can i have a more direct answer, thanks

I don't know the proper answer for a while, except that #30 answer.

 

[Pastek]

Taqiya is a form of Islamic dissimulation or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

martirdom in christianity is the will of a believer to go as far as giving his life in order of not giving up his faith. It was common during the early years of christianity, before the edict of Milan, and Roman couldn't really get the point of that, they considered the christians as completely mad cause of the joy the displayed when facing their death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs


On the other hand is also interesting how martyrdom is adopted as a war tactics today in muslim world, even if it's a very different thing from the martyrdom i was talking about cause christians were persecuted while today muslim bombers kill themselves in order to kill as many people around them as they can. So i think this last thing should not be debated because it's basically a totally different thing. instead it may be interesting to talk about what i would call "reverse Taqiya", by that i mean people who simply pretend to be muslim under muslim regimes just to not put their life at risk because if they were to speak their true feelings they would be put in prison or to death, like saudi arabia costantly remind us on a daily basis.

so what are your toughts about martirdom and taqiya?

I'm not ok about commiting illegal or blasphemous acts or it should be in extrem conditions maybe.

Martyrdom as a "tactic" is not used by muslim armies. It's only used by some groups (Al Quaida, Daesh...) or some individuals (palestinians).
This was never a tactic adopted by the official army of a muslim country. Suicide is not a part of Islam.

By the way, last month :

In the Monday attack, the gunmen (El Shabab) ordered Muslim passengers to come out of the bus and separate themselves from the Christians.

There were more than 100 passengers on board.

The Muslim passengers refused.

They gave the Christian women their hijabs and helped others hide behind bags in the bus, passenger Abdiqafar Teno told CNN.

"They told them, 'If you want to kill us, then kill us. There are no Christians here," he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/22/africa/kenya-bus-attack-al-shabaab-muslim-christians/

I don't think it's "cowardice" to try to save our life.

 

[cambridge79]

I don't know the proper answer for a while, except that #30 answer.

Well i asked your personal opinion, not the words of your prophet, so have i to assume you have no personal opinion on the subject?

 

[use_your_brain]

Well i asked your personal opinion, not the words of your prophet, so have i to assume you have no personal opinion on the subject?

I won't answer it, if you ask my personal opinion regarding to this question.

 

[cambridge79]

I'm not ok about commiting illegal or blasphemous acts or it should be in extrem conditions maybe.

Martyrdom as a "tactic" is not used by muslim armies. It's only used by some groups (Al Quaida, Daesh...) or some individuals (palestinians).
This was never a tactic adopted by the official army of a muslim country. Suicide is not a part of Islam.

By the way, last month :

In the Monday attack, the gunmen (El Shabab) ordered Muslim passengers to come out of the bus and separate themselves from the Christians.

There were more than 100 passengers on board.

The Muslim passengers refused.

They gave the Christian women their hijabs and helped others hide behind bags in the bus, passenger Abdiqafar Teno told CNN.

"They told them, 'If you want to kill us, then kill us. There are no Christians here," he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/22/africa/kenya-bus-attack-al-shabaab-muslim-christians/

if only these kind of episode would recieve more publicity i think we would coexists much more easily. But our media always magnify the bad things and minimize the good ones.
watching the news if you have 6 sunny days and 1 rainy day they talk about the rainy day for the whole week making it look as if it's always raining.

I'm curious on the subject, they did that because islam prescribes this kind of behaviour or because they felt it was the decent thing to do between human beings?

I don't think it's "cowardice" to try to save our life.

i don't think it either. I think that to lie in order to have your life spared is what would make more sense for anyone. So in the concept of Taqiya i see nothing more than common sense.
But again i don't believe in afterlife, so to me life is the most precious thing you have.
But on the other hand one person who believes the true life starts after death and that martirdom is a first class ticket to reach heaven may go as far as to wish to find himself in such a situation.
reading the accounts of early christians being put to death you can read about people actually happy for their fate and approaching death singing and smiling, and that scared the romans who weren't able to understand such foolish behavior.

 

[cambridge79]

I won't answer it, if you ask my personal opinion regarding to this question.

why? it feels quite odd to me that a person won't share his personal view on a subject in a discussion forum in a conversation he deliberately chosed to partecipate.
If you at least don't give an explanation on why you don't want to answer than people will start to assume the worse things. the irony of this is that you've condamned Taqiya but it looks like as you're actually recurring to it right now to hide your true feelings: so please for your own good can you at least share with us why you don't want to answer?

What's the problem here:
you don't have an opinion? well it may be the right opportunity to come up with one.
muslims are not allowed to have personal opinions? than it's not a religion but a dictatorship
you're unsure about your opinion? than we can debate it togheter
you're ashamed of your opinion? than why would you keep it.
you're unsure if your opinion is the opinion you should have according to the muslim teachings you follow?
it seems to me quite odd that a man named "use your brain" can't even elaborate an opinion for himself when politely asked so what one has to assume is that you don't want to share it with us.

 

[Useless2015]

Please, brother, read my post here: http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...two-different-approaches.183725/#post-4595937

It is not taught in Shia Islam that it is okay to lie for worldly goals. There is much misconception here and all sides must educate themselves. Education helps with understanding and understanding brings compassion and friendliness.

There are tons of examples of Shia 'taqiya'. Especially Shia priests who call the wives of Muhammed s.a.w wh-res infront of shia sheep and when asked about it on tv suddenly its FORBIDDEN to be negative in any way on the wives of the Prophet s.a.w.

Here is a fine example of Shia taqiya..

 

[cambridge79]

There are tons of examples of Shia 'taqiya'. Especially Shia priests who call the wives of Muhammed s.a.w wh-res infront of shia sheep and when asked about it on tv suddenly its FORBIDDEN to be negative in any way on the wives of the Prophet s.a.w.

Here is a fine example of Shia taqiya..

the irony of that video is that it probably come from a different group of sheeps following a different pastor. they may bleat a different way but still sheeps we're talkin about.

 

[Pastek]

I'm curious on the subject, they did that because islam prescribes this kind of behaviour or because they felt it was the decent thing to do between human beings?

They are their compatriots. And Islam don't approves injustice and violence against civilians.