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Taqiya vs martirdom: two different approaches

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm curious on the subject, they did that because islam prescribes this kind of behaviour or because they felt it was the decent thing to do between human beings?

Most people are decent at heart. Certainly decent enough to, in the absence of particularly strong motivators to the contrary, prefer to be part of the saving of innocent lives instead of even passive accomplices to their deaths. And decent and courageous enough not to be detained by false dilemmas such as "what are the odds of God understanding and approving of this circunstantial need for me to lie in order to protect innocents from entirely unfair danger of death"?
 

Useless2015

Active Member
the irony of that video is that it probably come from a different group of sheeps following a different pastor. they may bleat a different way but still sheeps we're talkin about.
Not really. This video is just showing the definition of taqiya used by the Shia. Its basically lying for the sake of decieving non-muslims and naive muslims.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
There are tons of examples of Shia 'taqiya'. Especially Shia priests who call the wives of Muhammed s.a.w wh-res infront of shia sheep and when asked about it on tv suddenly its FORBIDDEN to be negative in any way on the wives of the Prophet s.a.w.

Here is a fine example of Shia taqiya..
If I recall correctly, you're a Salafist, so your hatred of Shias is to be expected.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I have never mentioned a thing about being a Salafist..?
Sorry, I think I mixed you up with Servant of the One.
What did you think about the clip though? Did you a see a gun to his temple?
A Shia would have to comment about that. I don't think it's fair to base an opinion of an entire denomination on just one person, especially when the video is so rude.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
A Shia would have to comment about that. I don't think it's fair to base an opinion of an entire denomination on just one person, especially when the video is so rude.

You do however think it's fair to say 'taqiya' is used by all Sunni's because of an article you saw, explaining what taqiya is?



Taqiya is only used by Shia and only encouraged in Shia religion/cult. The only goal is decieving others about their beliefs. Taqiya in the Quran is only allowed in very dire situations. I wouldn't call giving a sermon a life or death situation. So the Shia taqiya does not come from the Quran.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
You do however think it's fair to say 'taqiya' is used by all Sunni's because of an article you saw, explaining what taqiya is?
I didn't say it's used by all Sunnis. I just said that it's a concept that's found in the denomination.

I personally don't care for the sectarian bickering. I think it's as childish as what you find in Christianity.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
I didn't say it's used by all Sunnis. I just said that it's a concept that's found in the denomination.

I personally don't care for the sectarian bickering. I think it's as childish as what you find in Christianity.

Its not found in Sunnism my friend. Taqiya in the Quran is something different from Shia taqiya. The only thing in common is the name.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
why? it feels quite odd to me that a person won't share his personal view on a subject in a discussion forum in a conversation he deliberately chosed to partecipate.
If you at least don't give an explanation on why you don't want to answer than people will start to assume the worse things. the irony of this is that you've condamned Taqiya but it looks like as you're actually recurring to it right now to hide your true feelings: so please for your own good can you at least share with us why you don't want to answer?

What's the problem here:
you don't have an opinion? well it may be the right opportunity to come up with one.
muslims are not allowed to have personal opinions? than it's not a religion but a dictatorship
you're unsure about your opinion? than we can debate it togheter
you're ashamed of your opinion? than why would you keep it.
you're unsure if your opinion is the opinion you should have according to the muslim teachings you follow?
it seems to me quite odd that a man named "use your brain" can't even elaborate an opinion for himself when politely asked so what one has to assume is that you don't want to share it with us.
I m still curious about this
 

use_your_brain

Active Member
why? it feels quite odd to me that a person won't share his personal view on a subject in a discussion forum in a conversation he deliberately chosed to partecipate.
If you at least don't give an explanation on why you don't want to answer than people will start to assume the worse things. the irony of this is that you've condamned Taqiya but it looks like as you're actually recurring to it right now to hide your true feelings: so please for your own good can you at least share with us why you don't want to answer?

What's the problem here:
you don't have an opinion? well it may be the right opportunity to come up with one.
muslims are not allowed to have personal opinions? than it's not a religion but a dictatorship
you're unsure about your opinion? than we can debate it togheter
you're ashamed of your opinion? than why would you keep it.
you're unsure if your opinion is the opinion you should have according to the muslim teachings you follow?
it seems to me quite odd that a man named "use your brain" can't even elaborate an opinion for himself when politely asked so what one has to assume is that you don't want to share it with us.
It is not because I am afraid of telling my honest answer, but rather I am afraid Allah would test me because of my word.
I am afraid Allah would put me in the such condition, after I announce my commitment to will not change my faith even thought under the torment.
the question that i would not either answer is such this question:
"would you still praise upon Allah even thought your home be getting burnt or your children be getting killed?"
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
i was raised christian too, and actually i remember there was a huge praise of the courage of martirs and i've never been told what you say, probably because in my country christians are not in danger so they're not trained on what to do in such situations.
What peter did was always narrated to me as an act of weakness, to show his human weakness opposed to the godly perfection of jesus going trough martirdom, not as an example of what to do in case someone is coming after you for your faith.

These denials are from a real chance of being killed.

I don't see how they could be considered cowards. Live to fight another day.

We are not told that anything happened to them because they did such. God didn't strike them dead.

*
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
it may be interesting to confront these two different doctrines that christianity and islam suggest when their members find themselves in a danger situation.

Taqiya is a form of Islamic dissimulation or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

martirdom in christianity is the will of a believer to go as far as giving his life in order of not giving up his faith. It was common during the early years of christianity, before the edict of Milan, and Roman couldn't really get the point of that, they considered the christians as completely mad cause of the joy the displayed when facing their death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

i find it interesting that two religions so tied togheter adopt two approaches that are as far apart as they could be. What's your opinion on such subject? wich approach do you find more honest?

for example Taqiya may seem a very deprecable act of cowardice, denying your god in order to have your life spared looks extremely unreligious. On the other hand is extremely practical fundamentally because it makes you stay alive.
But also it may suggest a not complete faith in your god otherwise you would not hide your faith to save your life, considering the fact that in theory you believe in a wonderful afterlife.
Martirdom on the other hand can be seen as the highest form of sacrifice in the name of your faith, but on the other hand it may looks pointless and silly, because a dead man is of no use to no one and because it shows how careless a man can become when believing in a god.

It's also interesting that Peter himself in the gospels ended up adopting Taqiya to save himself from the people that were accusing him of being a christ follower. It's also interesting that Peter later in his life ended up being a martyr

On the other hand is also interesting how martyrdom is adopted as a war tactics today in muslim world, even if it's a very different thing from the martyrdom i was talking about cause christians were persecuted while today muslim bombers kill themselves in order to kill as many people around them as they can. So i think this last thing should not be debated because it's basically a totally different thing. instead it may be interesting to talk about what i would call "reverse Taqiya", by that i mean people who simply pretend to be muslim under muslim regimes just to not put their life at risk because if they were to speak their true feelings they would be put in prison or to death, like saudi arabia costantly remind us on a daily basis.

so what are your toughts about martirdom and taqiya?
Altkaah in Islam means lying
One of the verses of the Koran
Used as a means to spread Islam
They are used in our time dramatically
Because they are in Western countries do not show their faith in the original
But after that they become a powerful force Stbda large claims
The best example in Europe BosniaAnd Altkaah of verses of the Koran
But there is a difference between Shiite and sonnei schools
One believes in it fully as it is in the Koran
And the other believes in it with exegesis
And either Christianity
There is no TekayaChrist's words clear
That those who deny Christ also Sinl
And also from Eastern Christians practices
Despite the persecution and tribute and considered second-class citizens they did not leave their faith
A practice that I know
During the Iran-Iraq war
There was a family of fighters and soldiers Christians
But they did not leave their faith
They did not lie in their affiliation to Christianity
I know some accountsIt novels of my relatives
Christianity also says do not lie
One of the Ten Commandments
That is why all kinds of lying does not know Christian
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Altkaah in Islam means lying
One of the verses of the Koran
Used as a means to spread Islam
They are used in our time dramatically
Because they are in Western countries do not show their faith in the original
But after that they become a powerful force Stbda large claims
The best example in Europe BosniaAnd Altkaah of verses of the Koran
But there is a difference between Shiite and sonnei schools
One believes in it fully as it is in the Koran
And the other believes in it with exegesis
And either Christianity
There is no TekayaChrist's words clear
That those who deny Christ also Sinl
And also from Eastern Christians practices
Despite the persecution and tribute and considered second-class citizens they did not leave their faith
A practice that I know
During the Iran-Iraq war
There was a family of fighters and soldiers Christians
But they did not leave their faith
They did not lie in their affiliation to Christianity
I know some accountsIt novels of my relatives
Christianity also says do not lie
One of the Ten Commandments
That is why all kinds of lying does not know Christian

Allow me to correct you. Taqiyyah means speaking things out of fear to get away. The religious meaning is lying out of fear. Saying it means "lying" with a full stop, is wrong and completely out of context. Lying is forbidden in Islam. This is the same mistake you make referring and interpreting from the Quran too.

If you are an Arab, you should know that the base verb of "Taqiyyah" or تقية in Arabic is يتقي which means having fears. Any one can see the similarity of the two words here, and translating it on Google translate is a proof.
 
so what are your toughts about martirdom and taqiya?

Taqiyya, as in the sense of the permissibility of disavowing your faith in order to safeguard your life, simply reflects rulings already formed in the Abrahamic traditions. It is not a Muslim invention, but just the expression of existing legal judgements into an Islamic context.

It was certainly something that Jews had experience of as Christians had a habit of forced baptism for Jews, so the legal precedent had already been established.
 

ak.yonathan

Active Member
If anything, it's Christianity that endorses lying. Jesus said that Christians should lie in order to make a lot of friends.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
It is not because I am afraid of telling my honest answer, but rather I am afraid Allah would test me because of my word.
I am afraid Allah would put me in the such condition, after I announce my commitment to will not change my faith even thought under the torment.
the question that i would not either answer is such this question:
"would you still praise upon Allah even thought your home be getting burnt or your children be getting killed?"

is this the kind of peace of mind religious people talk about? "since god loves me and since religion gives me peace of mind, i'm afraid cause if i speak my heart god will destroy my house to put my faith to test"
this is the way people under a dictatorship live their lives, shutting their mouths in fear of the consequences. honestly it looks more superstition than faith this.
please also consider that if god is the one who is able to know everything that is in your heart and your mind he already knows your opinion and if he want to put you to test he will do no matter what you do or don't.
but i thank you for sharing with me the reason why you didn't want to answer.
 

use_your_brain

Active Member
is this the kind of peace of mind religious people talk about? "since god loves me and since religion gives me peace of mind, i'm afraid cause if i speak my heart god will destroy my house to put my faith to test"
this is the way people under a dictatorship live their lives, shutting their mouths in fear of the consequences. honestly it looks more superstition than faith this.
please also consider that if god is the one who is able to know everything that is in your heart and your mind he already knows your opinion and if he want to put you to test he will do no matter what you do or don't.
but i thank you for sharing with me the reason why you didn't want to answer.
Do you know why Prophet Abraham was ordered to slaughter his beloved son?
It was because, he said: "Even thought if God ordered me to sacrifice my son, then I would do it."
Later on, God ordered him to slaughter his son to test him.
it is the other kind of our relationship with the God.
Even I don't allow my hearth answer this such challenge question, let alone in a word.
Try to ask this kind of question on, for example, Yahoo Answer on Ramadan section. Likelihood, you would get then same response.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
Do you know why Prophet Abraham was ordered to slaughter his beloved son?
It was because, he said: "Even thought if God ordered me to sacrifice my son, then I would do it."
Later on, God ordered him to slaughter his son to test him.
it is the other kind of our relationship with the God.
Try to ask this kind of question on, for example, Yahoo Answer on Ramadan section. Likelihood, you would get then same response.

Prophet Abraham according to your myth was the one god had chosen to be his prophet so he put him to test. you know how many people must have said the things Abrham said and god never cared ?
unless you're telling me you're afraid of the chance god is gonna chose you as his new prophet, something wich i would consider very unlikely to happen.
 
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