• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Teachers Strike in Arizona

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ducey: I've made final offer to Arizona teachers, and they should accept it

The Governor has pledged to give teachers a 19% raise by 2020, so that's his final offer which was not accepted by the teachers, who walked out as of today.

PHOENIX — Saying he won’t be offering teachers anything more, Gov. Doug Ducey said Wednesday their strike will end when they realize he’s made a good offer and they all go back to work.

The governor told Capitol Media Services his plan to boost teacher salaries by 19 percent by the 2020-2021 school year fulfills his promise of a significant pay increase. It also would restore the first $100 million of $371 million that lawmakers have siphoned from additional aid to schools.

Ducey said his offer meets the key demand of the educator groups whose members voted last week to walk out beginning Thursday, April 26.


“So they know it’s been delivered on,” he said. “And it’s time to move forward.”

As of today, though, Ducey can’t promise that. Republican legislators have yet to approve his proposal, balking at his contention that the package can be funded largely through growth in the economy.

They're keeping the cafeterias at the schools still open, so the kids can go there for breakfast and lunch, but classes and all other activities are cancelled.

I did see on the news last night that some churches are offering parents a place for their kids to go during the school closures. They had volunteers and activities set up.

I've seen the teachers out on the streets carrying signs and drumming up support. Some cars were honking at them in support, but others have been critical of the teachers for walking out. There's a possibility that they could get fired or lose their teacher certification. That's been tossed around, although both the Governor and the Superintendent of Public Instruction (both Republicans) are up for re-election this year.

We'll see how this plays out.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Ducey: I've made final offer to Arizona teachers, and they should accept it

The Governor has pledged to give teachers a 19% raise by 2020, so that's his final offer which was not accepted by the teachers, who walked out as of today.



They're keeping the cafeterias at the schools still open, so the kids can go there for breakfast and lunch, but classes and all other activities are cancelled.

I did see on the news last night that some churches are offering parents a place for their kids to go during the school closures. They had volunteers and activities set up.

I've seen the teachers out on the streets carrying signs and drumming up support. Some cars were honking at them in support, but others have been critical of the teachers for walking out. There's a possibility that they could get fired or lose their teacher certification. That's been tossed around, although both the Governor and the Superintendent of Public Instruction (both Republicans) are up for re-election this year.

We'll see how this plays out.
If it hasn't been confirmed, I can see why they are still upset.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I've been following the stories about teacher strikes here and there for a while now. It's a rather distressing situation all around. Whilst it's apparently okay to give big tax breaks to corporations so they'll come to your state (with a general lack of transparency in the process, I might add), it's not okay to adequately fund the education upon which all of this country's products and processes depend. Where are these companies going to find decent workers when a generation of students is learning from 25 year old textbooks bound together with duct tape?

(That's a reference to this article - 25-Year-Old Textbooks and Holes in the Ceiling: Inside America’s Public Schools - and this article - Opinion | Do Taxpayers Know They Are Handing Out Billions to Corporations? - published in the New York Times earlier this month, by the by)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If it hasn't been confirmed, I can see why they are still upset.

True, as well as the fact that on average, Arizona teacher salaries are pretty low compared to the rest of the country.

http://ktar.com/story/1755214/arizona-worst-state-nation-teacher-pay-friendliness-studies-find/

Arizona has ranked dead last nationwide in elementary school teacher pay and 49th in the country for secondary school teacher pay, according to a recent studyfrom the education advocacy group Expect More Arizona.


But that’s not all: A different study from WalletHub found that Arizona ranked as the worst state in the country for teachers.

Elementary school teachers in the state get paid an average annual salary of $42,474, more than $13,000 less than the national average of $55,800.

So, even a 20% raise would still be below average compared to the national average.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Who do they think they are? They only work six hours a day, plus all those holidays no one else gets! They should pay for the privilege of looking after my angelic child! And, what's worse, if they strike I have to make other arrangements for someone to contain the little brat! Do they seriously expect me to do it! Don't they realise that their industrial action seeking basic levels of adequate salary and conditions inconveniences ME??!
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Ducey: I've made final offer to Arizona teachers, and they should accept it

The Governor has pledged to give teachers a 19% raise by 2020, so that's his final offer which was not accepted by the teachers, who walked out as of today.

The governor did not receive a good math education. 9% increase, followed by 5%, increase followed by 5% increase does not equal 19% total. Each annual percent raise is calculated on an increased base. The correct calculation is (1.09 x 1.05 x 1.05)-1 or just over 20% increase.

I agree that it sucks that this raise is not guaranteed. The teachers should know that AZ pays teachers poorly and gone to a different state. Otherwise, you work for what you can get in the location that you want.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I support the teachers 100%. Screwing children to give handouts to the plutocrats must stop. It's time to honor our children and those that care for them and teach them by giving them decent schools, decent class sizes and decent salaries. And that means taking the country back from the plutocrats and kleptocrats.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The teachers should know that AZ pays teachers poorly and gone to a different state. Otherwise, you work for what you can get in the location that you want.
Why doesn't the district's board and superintendent do that instead? Why do the teachers have to do as such? Shouldn't they have a say in their employment conditions or are boards and the superintendents oligarchs?

BTW, the days and hours lost are likely to be made up, although I don't know how Arizona law on this works.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
True, as well as the fact that on average, Arizona teacher salaries are pretty low compared to the rest of the country.

http://ktar.com/story/1755214/arizona-worst-state-nation-teacher-pay-friendliness-studies-find/



So, even a 20% raise would still be below average compared to the national average.
I guess that would be up to Arizona residents and what bang do they get for surrendering their bucks. How do students in Arizona rate academically with the rest of the country?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wow.

"
Children who are raised speaking English as a second language often face additional academic challenges at American public schools. In Arizona, only 79.4% of children are raised by parents who speak fluent English, one of the smallest shares of any state. This unique academic hurdle faced by a relatively large share of children may partially explain Arizona’s low graduation rate. Only 79.5% of high school students in the state graduate with a diploma compared to 84.1% of high school students nationwide.

The large share of ESL students and low graduation rate may suggest Arizona needs to invest more in its education system. The state spends only $8,131 per pupil per year on its public schools, the second lowest per-pupil education expenditure of any state in the country."


Source

Geographic disparity: States with the best (and worst) schools
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Why doesn't the district's board and superintendent do that instead? Why do the teachers have to do as such? Shouldn't they have a say in their employment conditions or are boards and the superintendents oligarchs?

Just like any job, you can demand the pay that you'd like to get. That doesn't mean your employer has to pay whatever you demand. If a person doesn't like their pay, they are free to go elsewhere.

And yes, if the district board and superintendent don't like their own pay, they can go elsewhere as well.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Just like any job, you can demand the pay that you'd like to get. That doesn't mean your employer has to pay whatever you demand. If a person doesn't like their pay, they are free to go elsewhere.

And yes, if the district board and superintendent don't like their own pay, they can go elsewhere as well.
The idea of just getting up and leaving, and that this is somehow so easy, is simply not the case with so many people.

For one, there's the leaving of family and friends in many cases. For another there's often a loss of some pay and sometimes benefits, plus risks at having less seniority at one's new job. For another, moving is quite expensive and may be beyond what many families can afford. And then there's the effect on the kids-- and it's the kids that education is about.

Your statement "That doesn't mean your employer has to pay whatever you demand" is really quite a strawman since that's simply not how negotiations work. Generally speaking, no one usually comes out with all they would like to have.

But there's more, in that which model does one prefer: an authoritarian one or a democratic one? If the workers don't work, no work gets done and the company fails if that were to continue, hurting both labor and management. Therefore, there's incentive on both sides to work out some sort of agreement, and this is how a "democratic model" works.

The "authoritarian model", however, is pretty much dictatorial by its nature. For a ma & pa operation, that can work out in many cases quite well for all parties since the owners tend to personally know their employees and bonds are often created that encourages empathy between the parties. But on a much larger scale, these bonds and the personal empathy tends to wane or be almost entirely absent. You're simply a number to the owners of a large company or to the CEO in a corporation-- that's all. Eliminating you is a piece of cake with no sweat off their brow because they don't know you from Sam Hill. And I have worked under both conditions over my 73 years, and the atmosphere between the two is simply not the same.

In education, "where the rubber meets the road" is the teacher/student relationship. This is where the work really gets done because without the teacher or without the student there would be no need for the educational system because little to no education would be taking place. So, how is it fair in any way that those whom are actually doing most of the work to somehow to be treated as if they were merely a machine?
How does it make any sense whatsoever that the teachers would have no say in a system as such? or even the students as well? Are they just to be pawns for the administrators even though it is they, not the administration, that is doing most of the "grunt work" in the classroom where the real action is? After all, the teachers are the educators here, and it is their bond with their students that is so very essential.

So, which do you prefer: the "authoritarian model" or the "democratic model"? If it's the former with you, we'll never agree on this and quite a few other things that can be related to these two models.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The idea of just getting up and leaving, and that this is somehow so easy, is simply not the case with so many people.

For one, there's the leaving of family and friends in many cases. For another there's often a loss of some pay and sometimes benefits, plus risks at having less seniority at one's new job. For another, moving is quite expensive and may be beyond what many families can afford. And then there's the effect on the kids-- and it's the kids that education is about.

Your statement "That doesn't mean your employer has to pay whatever you demand" is really quite a strawman since that's simply not how negotiations work. Generally speaking, no one usually comes out with all they would like to have.

But there's more, in that which model does one prefer: an authoritarian one or a democratic one? If the workers don't work, no work gets done and the company fails if that were to continue, hurting both labor and management. Therefore, there's incentive on both sides to work out some sort of agreement, and this is how a "democratic model" works.

The "authoritarian model", however, is pretty much dictatorial by its nature. For a ma & pa operation, that can work out in many cases quite well for all parties since the owners tend to personally know their employees and bonds are often created that encourages empathy between the parties. But on a much larger scale, these bonds and the personal empathy tends to wane or be almost entirely absent. You're simply a number to the owners of a large company or to the CEO in a corporation-- that's all. Eliminating you is a piece of cake with no sweat off their brow because they don't know you from Sam Hill. And I have worked under both conditions over my 73 years, and the atmosphere between the two is simply not the same.

In education, "where the rubber meets the road" is the teacher/student relationship. This is where the work really gets done because without the teacher or without the student there would be no need for the educational system because little to no education would be taking place. So, how is it fair in any way that those whom are actually doing most of the work to somehow to be treated as if they were merely a machine?
How does it make any sense whatsoever that the teachers would have no say in a system as such? or even the students as well? Are they just to be pawns for the administrators even though it is they, not the administration, that is doing most of the "grunt work" in the classroom where the real action is? After all, the teachers are the educators here, and it is their bond with their students that is so very essential.

So, which do you prefer: the "authoritarian model" or the "democratic model"? If it's the former with you, we'll never agree on this and quite a few other things that can be related to these two models.

You make some good points, and I've noticed this in both the public and private sector. Those who are in administrative posts invariably take the lion's share of compensation compared to the people who are actually in the trenches and doing all the actual work. Here in TUSD, a former superintendent was criticized for hiring four administrative assistants, each earning in excess of $100,000 per year. And yet, when it comes time to pay the teachers, they plead poverty and claim they don't have enough money for decent compensation.

A private sector example might be hospitals, where administrators (who aren't doctors and don't treat patients) earn several times more than the doctors and nurses who are actually treating the patients and doing the work. Insurance company CEOs get even more money, which would indicate that they're at the top of the food chain in that industry.

Akivah is correct in that people can always walk away and go someplace else. People do it all the time. For some, it might be a struggle, but either way, the consequences of myopia and being pennywise and pound foolish will visit us just the same.

I think we're already seeing the consequences of a badly-managed and neglected educational system. But it's also uneven, so it may not be visible from some areas. I know that in America, some districts in affluent areas are well-funded, with supportive parents who care about their children's education. As a result, those schools are top-notch and are on par with any of the top schools in the industrialized world.

But in the less affluent areas, that's not the case. So, when it all averages out, it makes it look like America is lagging behind the rest of the world in education.

A lot of Arizona is pretty depressed, economically speaking. A few years ago, Tucson was noted as the 6th poorest city in America. (30-40 years ago, there were high hopes that we were going to experience a great boom in high-tech industries moving into the city, which never really materialized as they hoped it would.) Many of the school buildings are in sad shape. A lot of boarded up stores and vacant properties. The roads are in terrible condition - potholes and rough patches everywhere. Some areas are still nice, but a lot of the outlying rural areas are in even worse shape.

The politics are corrupt. Everyone seems to have some axe to grind or some personal agenda, and it seems to be even worse when it comes to school board squabbles. I remember many years ago when there was some kind of intractable dispute on the local community college board of governors. I don't remember all the details, but it was one of the most bizarre episodes of political infighting and intrigue within a political body, with the local media covering it play by play. There's something about Arizona which produces colorful politicians, even at the local level.

I'm not sure what's going to happen with this strike. I don't think compromise will be easy, as both sides seem pretty set in their positions. Public opinion seems mixed. Even among teachers, they're not all of one like mind on this. They all agree that teachers should earn more, but some don't believe a strike is the way to go about it. Others also questioned the timing of the strike, just a few weeks before the end of the school year.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Just like any job, you can demand the pay that you'd like to get. That doesn't mean your employer has to pay whatever you demand. If a person doesn't like their pay, they are free to go elsewhere.

Just like any commodity, you can band together with other producers and negotiate for the price of your goods. In this case, the commodity is labor.

In order for a capitalist society to work in a just manner the laborers have to have some leverage when it comes to the services they provide. The economy doesn't work for everyone if the price of labor is too strongly controlled by one party.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
If it's the former with you, we'll never agree on this and quite a few other things that can be related to these two models.

You've just now noticed that we hardly agree on anything?

Company culture is not defined by the size of the company. I've worked for family valued mega-corporations and dictatorial small companies. Whatever the company culture, it is up to the employee as to whether or not they will remain there. And "fair" is not a useful attribute. Life is not fair. Nor can anyone agree on what fairness means. IMO, it all comes down to personal choice. Do I want to continue working here or do I want to find a better fit, no matter the inconvenience to meet my life's goals?
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Just like any commodity, you can band together with other producers and negotiate for the price of your goods. In this case, the commodity is labor.

In order for a capitalist society to work in a just manner the laborers have to have some leverage when it comes to the services they provide. The economy doesn't work for everyone if the price of labor is too strongly controlled by one party.

Oh sure, workers can band together and strike as a tactic to increase their pay/benefits. However, the workers always have to keep in mind that they are not irreplaceable. If their demands become too much for management to accept, they can be replaced by others that will accept what they are rejecting.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Ducey: I've made final offer to Arizona teachers, and they should accept it

The Governor has pledged to give teachers a 19% raise by 2020, so that's his final offer which was not accepted by the teachers, who walked out as of today.



They're keeping the cafeterias at the schools still open, so the kids can go there for breakfast and lunch, but classes and all other activities are cancelled.

I did see on the news last night that some churches are offering parents a place for their kids to go during the school closures. They had volunteers and activities set up.

I've seen the teachers out on the streets carrying signs and drumming up support. Some cars were honking at them in support, but others have been critical of the teachers for walking out. There's a possibility that they could get fired or lose their teacher certification. That's been tossed around, although both the Governor and the Superintendent of Public Instruction (both Republicans) are up for re-election this year.

We'll see how this plays out.

The teachers say it isn't about the raise...


Arizona teacher walkout: how 3 decades of tax cuts suffocated public schools
 
Top