Teleological Argument (Aquinas)

[PearlSeeker]

A whole lot of different kinds of 'causes', as I recall ─ from many years ago ...

Yes. The four causes.

 

[PearlSeeker]

To explain something in the 5th way, you need to go back to the beginning, as far as possible. Evolution currently starts at replicators, which is not as far back as you can go. In the beginning, was not just replicators in water, but very simple chemicals in water. The latter is the 5th way. If you do not go far enough back, this will preclude full logic, and will require, dice and cards, since you lack the very beginning logic to explain the anomalies that need diced and cards.

As an analogy, say you meet a new person who starts a job where you work. They are quiet and do not offer much in terms of their past. All you have is data connected from t=0, defined as when they started work. After a few years, you may think you have them pegged; correlated, in terms of behavior and quirks. However, all that which happened, from birth, to when they started work, will still be needed to get a full picture, as to why they do certain things. Correlating why their lunch has to sorted a certain way, is not the same as, why do they do it that way? Somewhere in the past, before your t=0, this all began.

The 5th way requires more out of science than they expect of themselves. The idea is to reach logic, and get past the whims of the gods that result when you start too late, and don't know how the play began.

Say you go to Broadway to see a play and due to traffic you enter at the first intermission. If you do not inquire what happened, in act one, but start the play at the second act, your logic may diverge from reality, You will not know that two characters were once close, had a fight and now avoid each. What you see is two antagonistic characters. Your line of reasoning starts wrong and when the play ends you are confused as why the author caused such an irrational ending, based on your best logic. He must be a Creationists.

I never learned about the 5th way, but do it naturally. Even BB needed one to got back further than the singular, to address all the mysteries that the current theory does not extrapolate, such as the rapid formation of galaxies and universal superstructure. This is why I use conceptual framework for thinking, to make sure all the basics add up and there is no extra puzzle pieces left over. If there are, we need to go back further in time to find out why? Somewhere, much earlier there is a logic even for this, which can be added to make the theory better.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[Ostronomos]

I do find it funny when people tag on science terms to make vague, hand-waving woo sound more credible. Quantum biology really isn't a thing (at least not that supports any "oneness with the infinite"), as I explained when you did a thread about it:

The Philosophy of Quantum Biology

I read on Wikipedia that vision relies on the quantum mechanical conversion of light signals into action potentials in a process called phototransduction. Where the eye's photoreceptors then absorbs the light signals. Then I read that conscious awareness in the ORCH OR theory starts with the...

www.religiousforums.com

How do you understand the term "higher dimension" and exactly how do you think it relates to string theory?

First and foremost, I want to praise you on your use of logic and reason for purposes of deeper understanding, rather than simply dismissing the very real possibility of a supernatural, or better yet, spiritual dimension.

My understanding of this higher dimension is the same as that of mainstream science, except that it is not merely a theoretical feature of Physics in my personal experience, but an objective world that I can access at times. In all honesty it depends on the state of the Quantum computer that is the brain, or in this case, my brain, and its ability to access this dimension.

I am unaware of any evidence of people other than myself who have experienced the phenomenon of what may be appropriately called "spiritual" or "supernatural", or any other phenomenon lying outside mainstream scientific findings. However, I will lay claim to the fact that I was instrumental in providing the logical argument behind such a dimension in which God resides ( see my other thread below this one on "Conspansive hological processing and display")..

I am one of two other geniuses who have provided logical proofs for the existence of God. I have a dual identity due to the fact that I am able to expand my consciousness for minutes at a time. In which case I quickly put pen to paper and record my thoughts.

Happy reading.

 

[blü 2]

Our understanding of physics is irrelevant to our lack of understanding why something exists as opposed to nothing. Physics is the something that exists, not the source of it's being able to exist.

I agree it's fun, over cognac and cigars at the end of the evening, to speculate and muse on why anything exists, and who'll win the next Rose Bowl.

But science is the only discipline actually examining the evidence for clues to such puzzles. Religious solutions are all imaginary, and only lead back to the question, Well, who made God?

 

[Ponder This]

Yes, the end is something that exists in the intellect before it exists in reality.



Yes, the action is required but according to Aristotle nonconscious things act pointing to an end because of their inherent (internal) directedness. They have a kind of autonomy.

"This is “intrinsic” teleology, which must be distinguished from the extrinsic teleology discussed at the start of this post. Aquinas is here referring to the natural, inherent tendency of things in our universe to act for determinate ends with order and regularity, which can only be explained by this principle of final causality; not for some extrinsic “design” imposed upon things externally."

Private Site

If the intellect is inherent, then wouldn't that mean that the supposition that "various objects lack intelligence" is false? And that really they do have intelligence. If it were something else beside the various objects that set their behavior, then by definition that something else would be extrinsic (not intrinsic), yes?

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

The Big Bang is creation in random chance, choice based on "AI" artificial intelligence, defiled from the intelligence of the "first" spirit through manifestaion. The "RI" real intelligence of the Will of Creation as the Fulfilled Creation and is what will have the State of the Holy Spirit being Removed is the pattern of choice, where intrinsic intelligence will be only static in unfailing and dynamic in eternity. The fulfilled intelligence of creation will include the pattern, the image of unfailing and eternal creation without the chance of failure with the removel of choice to defile creation.

Peace always,
Stephen andrew

 

[PearlSeeker]

If the intellect is inherent, then wouldn't that mean that the supposition that "various objects lack intelligence" is false? And that really they do have intelligence. If it were something else beside the various objects that set their behavior, then by definition that something else would be extrinsic (not intrinsic), yes?

What is inherent in these objects (that "lack intelligence") is directedness toward ends. That means they don't choose and direct any of their actions by themselves. So the intellect that directed things toward ends and purposes is not human and it's not in objects. This intellect determined their natures, essences, forms, powers... so that objects unconsciously strive to reach certain outcomes.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

To me in logic, infallible certainty will become intrinsic to the Soul of the being in the Body of Christ, from created mortal and corrupt to becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible through The Christ and becoming again, glorified and transfigured, through the Power of The Holy Spirit Person. The Will of the Creator God for The Father becomes no chance of failure in Heaven. No finite discipline can ever explain the static in unfailing yet dynamically fulfilled in eternal love of the Creator God, for The Father. Through the logic of the Divine Will of Creation, in logic, there will be no chance of failure in Eternity, no choice to defile creation as fulfilled in the real intelligence of Creation as the Power in infallible certainty no failure will exist to fail in the everlasting. Choice created failed love and fulfilled creation is His Passion, Eternal Divine Love fulfilled in eternity transformed immortal and incorruptible becoming glorified and transfigured as unfailing. To me in logic, choice is removed from the failed spirit and flesh becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible into the intelligence of infallible creation intrinsic through re-sanctified and reconfirmation in the Will of Creation. We become again glorified and transfigured becoming re-imaged into the Will of Creation, as what would the Person of Jesus in the Mind of God, conceived by The Person of The Holy Spirit through the Power of The Holy Spirit, in the Will of The Father. We are in teh same Will united with Jesus, our Brother in the Flesh and spirit from the Cross and we do as Jesus in all cases of fulfilled faith and morality, and then we in logic and faith become again glorified and transfigured re-imaged into the Will of The Creator God for God The Father.

Romans 11:36, which reads: "For from Him, The Person of The Holy Spirit and through Him, The Person of Jesus as The Christ and for Him, The Person of The Father are all things. To Him, God be glory forever. Amen."

Fiat is Latin for "Let it be from Manifestation of the Will of God through The Power of The Holy Spirit through the Person of Jesus as The Christ, and for God for The Father together with all mankind as one in being."

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[PearlSeeker]

Peace to all,

To me in logic, infallible certainty will become intrinsic to the Soul of the being in the Body of Christ, from created mortal and corrupt to becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible through The Christ and becoming again, glorified and transfigured, through the Power of The Holy Spirit Person. The Will of the Creator God for The Father becomes no chance of failure in Heaven. No finite discipline can ever explain the static in unfailing yet dynamically fulfilled in eternal love of the Creator God, for The Father. Through the logic of the Divine Will of Creation, in logic, there will be no chance of failure in Eternity, no choice to defile creation as fulfilled in the real intelligence of Creation as the Power in infallible certainty no failure will exist to fail in the everlasting. Choice created failed love and fulfilled creation is His Passion, Eternal Divine Love fulfilled in eternity transformed immortal and incorruptible becoming glorified and transfigured as unfailing. To me in logic, choice is removed from the failed spirit and flesh becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible into the intelligence of infallible creation intrinsic through re-sanctified and reconfirmation in the Will of Creation. We become again glorified and transfigured becoming re-imaged into the Will of Creation, as what would the Person of Jesus in the Mind of God, conceived by The Person of The Holy Spirit through the Power of The Holy Spirit, in the Will of The Father. We are in teh same Will united with Jesus, our Brother in the Flesh and spirit from the Cross and we do as Jesus in all cases of fulfilled faith and morality, and then we in logic and faith become again glorified and transfigured re-imaged into the Will of The Creator God for God The Father.

Romans 11:36, which reads: "For from Him, The Person of The Holy Spirit and through Him, The Person of Jesus as The Christ and for Him, The Person of The Father are all things. To Him, God be glory forever. Amen."

Fiat is Latin for "Let it be from Manifestation of the Will of God through The Power of The Holy Spirit through the Person of Jesus as The Christ, and for God for The Father together with all mankind as one in being."

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

Can you explain in simple words how is this relevant to the 5th way of Aquinas?

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Specified complexity means that a pattern has substantial independently specified information (specification) that has a low probability of occurrence by chance (complexity). Aquinas would agree that such specified complexity points to a designer, but he understands natural order in a way that is rather different from the understanding of many ID theorists.

Peace to all,

Thanks, PearlSeeker, and good information. Thanks again.

To me science has thrown in the towel on the finite disciplines, and as rational scientist, they say they do not know. But to me, the truth is in the logic which has more power than any discipline on earth to me.

What Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying, in logic is to me:

In logic, what is fulfilled in failed intelligence is the removal of internal temptations or logically what is "choice" which is logically anything that can fail in eternity. The spotless Lamb of God resurrects eternal life from the spirit through the flesh to the soul of the being in the Body of Christ. In logic, the blood and water from the Cross and of The Christ is the "First Born of Creation" back from where Jesus came, re-opening the gates of Heaven. Blood and Water birth creates the soul from the cross, the blood and water flowed, spirit and life for all mankind, reborn from becoming immortal and incorruptible and becoming again, glorified and transfigured, re-imaged into the mind of The Will of The Father, in the intelligence of Creation, back to Heaven from where the Holy Spirit comes, for all mankind in union with all mankind together with the Father and The Son as one in being, glorified and transfigured. In logic and in faith, we know nothing defiled will enter into the Kingdom of the Divine Will of Creation. We become logically re-imaged into the Will of Creation by The Power of the Holy Spirit Person through all of the Wondrous Mysteries of the Faith in The Christ, Jesus in the Will of The Father uniting all mankind as one in being.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[PureX]

I agree it's fun, over cognac and cigars at the end of the evening, to speculate and muse on why anything exists, and who'll win the next Rose Bowl.

But science is the only discipline actually examining the evidence for clues to such puzzles. Religious solutions are all imaginary, and only lead back to the question, Well, who made God?

Yes, and sadly, you 100% believe that physical evidence is the only pathway to discerning truth.

 

[blü 2]

Yes, and sadly, you 100% believe that physical evidence is the only pathway to discerning truth.

Certain truth about the world external to the self, yes.

But you're well aware of the problem you have ─ a complete, total, longstanding lack of any demonstration of the supernatural in reality. Were it otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing it.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

True Blu2, good info.

And I like the comment by PureX, and through faith we believe "Whatever the answer is, it clearly transcends the limitations that have been imposed on existence as we know it. And therefor, on our ability to comprehend it." But in logic we can understand it like a child of God. It has been said, if salvation, anything can be explained so that even a child can understand then salvation must be true.

To me through logic is best the way to understand the Trinity and the Kingdom of the Divine Will of Creation.

To me in logic comprehension is clear, the mind becoming from the intelligence of God manifesting through the Flesh manifesting for all Humanity through our choice and in the pattern, the image of The Christ, shared in all mankind becoming again, glorified and transfigured.

To me, the four most powerful words in the Bible are, “The Word became Flesh” as Jesus in the Mind of God in The Christ in all mankind shared as one in being becoming from immortal and incorruptible and becoming again glorified and transfigured. to me this is how logically God conceived His Will in all mankind, through the Christ, we become logical and divinely physical brothers and sisters from the Cross, "Ecce Mater tua," reborn and saved.

To me in logic, the supernatural creates mortal and corrupt becoming immortal and incorruptible and becoming again glorified and transfigured through all of the wondrous mysteries in the Faith through The Christ.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[PureX]

Certain truth about the world external to the self, yes.

But you're well aware of the problem you have ─ a complete, total, longstanding lack of any demonstration of the supernatural in reality. Were it otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing it.

Your kangaroo is showing ... again.

 

[blü 2]

Your kangaroo is showing ... again.

(Ahm, what does your kangaroo reference actually refer to?)

 

[PureX]

(Ahm, what does your kangaroo reference actually refer to?)

It refers to that kangaroo courtroom that you and others here seem to imagine that the whole world must come to and submit to your predetermined judgment.

 

[blü 2]

It refers to that kangaroo courtroom that you and others here seem to imagine that the whole world must come to and submit to your predetermined judgment.

Marsupial justice?

But all you need in order to persuade me is evidence that's ─ well ─ persuasive.

And you appear to have none.

So it remains the case that the only way supernatural entities are known to exist is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains.

 

[blü 2]

Peace to all,

You included.

And I like the comment by PureX, and through faith we believe "Whatever the answer is, it clearly transcends the limitations that have been imposed on existence as we know it. And therefor, on our ability to comprehend it."

How would you phrase this unanswered question?

But in logic we can understand it like a child of God. It has been said, if salvation, anything can be explained so that even a child can understand then salvation must be true.

Ahm, I respectfully demur. What's wrong with death? It's an intrinsic part of the life of all living things, so that we and they generally have reflexes, instinctive behaviors, to avoid it; but in the end we cease to be useful and we die. Seems to make sense to me, although I'm in no hurry to die. But why is living eternally not the same thing as being bored witless eternally?

To me through logic is best the way to understand the Trinity and the Kingdom of the Divine Will of Creation.

Unfortunately the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent, and that's not just my opinion. Theologically, it's called "a mystery in the strict sense, in that it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine, though I agree that they describe the situation accurately.

To me in logic comprehension is clear, the mind becoming from the intelligence of God manifesting through the Flesh manifesting for all Humanity through our choice and in the pattern, the image of The Christ, shared in all mankind becoming again, glorified and transfigured.

Outside of the debate boards here, I respect your right to believe as seems best to you.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Marsupial justice?

But all you need in order to persuade me is evidence that's ─ well ─ persuasive.

And you appear to have none.

So it remains the case that the only way supernatural entities are known to exist is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains.

Sometimes I hit the "show ignored posts" button if it seems like I might be misding big chunks of a conversation. A lot of the time, this ends up being @PureX doing a multi-page threadjack.

A kangaroo court is an illegitimate court with no real authority.

To PureX and his ego, the real authority is him. Failing to give him what he sees as proper deference by - for instance - not unquestioningly taking what he says as the unassailable truth is affront that he cannot stand. Someone else examining what he says critically and - shock - potentially disagreeing with him is, in his eyes, completely improper. He thinks that nobody has the authority to questioning him, so when people do it, he expresses this idea by parroting "kangaroo court!"

... which is why I generally leave him.on ignore.

 

[blü 2]

Sometimes I hit the "show ignored posts" button if it seems like I might be misding big chunks of a conversation. A lot of the time, this ends up being @PureX doing a multi-page threadjack.

A kangaroo court is an illegitimate court with no real authority.

To PureX and his ego, the real authority is him. Failing to give him what he sees as proper deference by - for instance - not unquestioningly taking what he says as the unassailable truth is affront that he cannot stand. Someone else examining what he says critically and - shock - potentially disagreeing with him is, in his eyes, completely improper. He thinks that nobody has the authority to questioning him, so when people do it, he expresses this idea by parroting "kangaroo court!"

... which is why I generally leave him.on ignore.

@PureX and I have some history. From that I suspect we don't really hate each other.